2-4 limit 10-10, river line?

ANY2CARDZ · #1 11-12-2005, 04:56 PM

Sb is 45/11/0 over 14 hands, mp3 is 46/7/1.31/over 50 hands
On the flop after mp3 raised I was going to 3 bet, but didnt like seeing the SB comming out of the bush and 3 betting that flop.
What do you think?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero??

#2 11-12-2005, 05:01 PM

I wouldn't have gotten to the river myself. The flop three bet screams set to me. What else could he have besides a diamond draw he's decided to pump. Call the river.

ANY2CARDZ · #3 11-13-2005, 12:43 PM

Results
Hero: folds
mp2: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SB: shows [9c 9d] (a pair of Nines)
Mp3: mucks hand
SB collected $52 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $54 | Rake $2
Board [8d 4c 5d 2h 6h]
Seat 1: MP3 [Ac 8c]

I was pretty sick about this hand afterwards, I was multitabling, and I think I missed the flush draw, otherwise I think the turn raise would have been ideal and alllowed me to take it down. I was originally going to call, but when the six hit, I got scared off by the straight possibilities.

ellipse_87 · #4 11-13-2005, 01:10 PM

Yeah, when you're still on the flop, the three-bet leaves A8/99 along with 88/55/44/54/76, and it sucks to get chased by a hand we beat. But, as I said, our total equity when you figure the narrowed range for SB and the presence of the other raiser is such that we can exit, IMO.

As it was played, once it's 12.5-1 on the river, the A8/99 possibilities require us to call, I think even with the 4-straight on board and the player behind us.

badbill7 · #5 11-13-2005, 01:52 PM

Quote:I was pretty sick about this hand afterwards, I was multitabling, and I think I missed the flush draw, otherwise I think the turn raise would have been ideal and alllowed me to take it down. I was originally going to call, but when the six hit, I got scared off by the straight possibilities.

While i feel bad for you i think even with straight scare card this represents fundamental flaw of folding in a decent sized pot for one bet. ramifications from this hand could effect you mentally for rest of session while losing one more bb is really not that bad here in the long run

#6 11-12-2005, 10:31 PM

The flop check/3-bet is very intimidating in my opinion. It's likely SB has a very big made hand or a very strong draw (either a flush draw or OESD, or possibly a combination of both). For this reason, I like raising the turn and taking a free showdown, should the opportunity arise. This way we can charge draws, fold out any overs MP3 may be holding, and fold too any further aggression. It's likely we have less than 2 outs when behind, and thus folding is relatively safe.

The problem with this, though, is MP3 is behind us, and this will likely foil our free showdown play. Though, given the hand range I still like raising the turn.

sweetjazz · #7 11-12-2005, 10:57 PM

This is a tough hand to play. Especially given that we don't have much of a read on SB.

If you continue on past the flop, then you must either cap the flop or raise the turn. At first glance, raising the turn seems best. You should fold to a 3-bet on the turn if MP3 cold-calls your raise, but you might want to call the turn if MP3 folds and SB 3-bets. There is a high likelihood you are against two pair (although set or straight is also possible) and thus should call on the river if the board pairs or you hit your set (possibly raise the set).

It may turn out that folding the flop would have been best (depending on what you later learn about SB). But I think that is too weak against an unknown.

Borodog · #8 11-13-2005, 12:26 AM

Raise/fold the turn. I do not like capping the flop because you may just be pumping someone else's draw for them.

sweetjazz · #9 11-13-2005, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise/fold the turn. I do not like capping the flop because you may just be pumping someone else's draw for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

While you may be right about not capping the flop, the reason give does not make sense (without more elaboration). Any time there is ramming and jamming on the flop in a multiway pot, the principal beneficiaries are the big draw(s) and the hand that is best now. The hand that is best now may have the other made hands drawing near dead (e.g. a flopped set) or may have other made hands drawing weak but live (e.g. TT in this hand). I include two overcards as a made hand (though it's just A high or K high or whatever; made hand might better be called not-a-big-draw hand in this post).

We are getting good equity if we cap the flop, assuming TT is the best hand.

The reason not to cap the flop is that we can get even better equity on the turn if we raise a blank, and we might not want to raise if a scary card (e.g. A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) comes, since our equity could be completely shot at this point.

The decision to cap the flop or not depends largely on whether we can get our villain to fold overcards in this spot. If he won't fold overcards, we're best waiting for a blank turn so we can put more pressure on him to fold and/or have him invest more money into the pot to go for his weak draw.

Whether or not we are helping the SB by pumping his draw is completely irrelevant. The goal in poker is to do what is in our best interest, and if our interest happens to coincide with that of the SB (at the expense of MP1), then that's just coolbeans.

Anyway, you may have known this / had this in mind, but I thought it worthwhile to point out. This is something that's important to understand, imho.

badbill7 · #10 11-13-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:While you may be right about not capping the flop, the reason give does not make sense (without more elaboration). Any time there is ramming and jamming on the flop in a multiway pot, the principal beneficiaries are the big draw(s) and the hand that is best now. The hand that is best now may have the other made hands drawing near dead (e.g. a flopped set) or may have other made hands drawing weak but live (e.g. TT in this hand). I include two overcards as a made hand (though it's just A high or K high or whatever; made hand might better be called not-a-big-draw hand in this post).

We are getting good equity if we cap the flop, assuming TT is the best hand.

I dont like the pump here because our hand is dubious at best i think close to half deck can drastically change things on turn so certaily not a place to pump pot but a turn raise i like. I feel guy was on a flush draw that he cant get away from on turn and river due to our lack of a turn raise so i call river.