gosh i just love top pair, don't you?

mgsimpleton · #1 11-09-2005, 06:23 PM

ok so here it is. i didn't think this hand was that interesting until HEK's post about his bluff and i read those responses. so i'd love to get people's opinions on this hand here.

my image is i had been playing fairly tight early on as my cards have been crap... but the last orbit i have raised i think 3 hands preflop. i just pulled a huge squeeze knowing the person leading had crap and the second guy had top pair, i put in a reraise with a draw and took it down. i don't know how, if at all, that affects this hand.

SB in this hand loves to bluff if he thinks no one has interest in the pot. MP is passive but has looked me up with pretty marginal hands in the past... so on to the hand...

we're playing 7 handed. SB has 2k, MP 1600 and i cover.

MP limps, I raise in CO to 80 with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

flop (260): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checked around.

turn (260): 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets 175, MP calls, i make it 475. MP calls.

river (1385): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

MP checks, I move in.

CamelZoo · #2 11-09-2005, 06:31 PM

short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

FoxwoodsFiend · #3 11-09-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it-you don't think she'll get looked up? Then what's the purpose of the bet if villain has a worse hand and won't call? Just check behind in that case.

TheWorstPlayer · #4 11-09-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it-you don't think she'll get looked up? Then what's the purpose of the bet if villain has a worse hand and won't call? Just check behind in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is exactly the point, right? We're hoping villain thinks "if she just hit the ace on the river, she would check behind and hope to beat my jack. but she is pushing. she must have KQ! I call."

mgsimpleton · #5 11-09-2005, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is exactly the point, right? We're hoping villain thinks "if she just hit the ace on the river, she would check behind and hope to beat my jack. but she is pushing. she must have KQ or 67s or 9Ts or 44 or ... ! I call."

[/ QUOTE ]

right, yeah that was the point.

CamelZoo · #6 11-09-2005, 06:56 PM

what i was trying to get at is that i don't see anything that you beat dropping out and i dont really think 99 or KJ or whatever is going to look you up thinking that a roughly potsized push is going to be 44/T9 or anything else. your current table image doesn't seem laggy enough to go that far given your description. (basically what FF said)

did he call?

FoxwoodsFiend · #7 11-09-2005, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it-you don't think she'll get looked up? Then what's the purpose of the bet if villain has a worse hand and won't call? Just check behind in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is exactly the point, right? We're hoping villain thinks "if she just hit the ace on the river, she would check behind and hope to beat my jack. but she is pushing. she must have KQ! I call."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad thinking, as most players don't go this extra step. They don't think "nobody would make this bet with an ace-it would be valueless. So I call this bluff." Most players aren't aware that most valueless bets are indeed valueless-hence villain probably isn't aware that this can't be a value bet (though it is). Even if he is one of the few that understands this concept, he doesn't know you are also so he will just interpret your bet as being yet another moron thinking that they can bet their TPGK on the river and get called by a worse hand.
Either way, he's folding.

TheWorstPlayer · #8 11-09-2005, 07:18 PM

I agree with you. But you can't have it both ways. In the Holdem thread that Duck references, a lot of people are saying "It is horrible if the guy folded KK here. You are so lucky he is so bad." and now in this thread you are saying "Of course he folds KK here."

pokerjoker · #9 11-09-2005, 07:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it-you don't think she'll get looked up? Then what's the purpose of the bet if villain has a worse hand and won't call? Just check behind in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is exactly the point, right? We're hoping villain thinks "if she just hit the ace on the river, she would check behind and hope to beat my jack. but she is pushing. she must have KQ! I call."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad thinking, as most players don't go this extra step. They don't think "nobody would make this bet with an ace-it would be valueless. So I call this bluff." Most players aren't aware that most valueless bets are indeed valueless-hence villain probably isn't aware that this can't be a value bet (

[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing this is true in the Highlimits makes me feel very happy.

FoxwoodsFiend · #10 11-09-2005, 06:35 PM

I don't like your line at all. On the turn this bluff is too obvious-you're the pfr and you checked the flop and raised the turn. What are you representing? It's too easy to put you on high cards.
Then the river comes and a high card hits, so I think villain will be very likely to believe that card hit you and hence only call if he has a better hand.
Unless you think he'll assume you know all this and try bluffing the ace, this move is guaranteed to be bad. Even then, he might not have the balls to make some slim call w/99, TT, or JQ.
Obviously, I'm assuming this whole post that the river gives you a winner, in which case I think you're blowing him off his hand. If it doesn't, then I can't see him folding anything better than TPGK anyway so your bet is still bad.