Trying new things -- betting into a 4 flush w/ fold if raised strategy

Mizzles · #1 04-11-2005, 10:53 AM

I NEVER bet into a four flush on the board without one of that suit, so I tried it here.

Bet or check/call this river and why?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, Button calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (6.83 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.83 BB

William Jockusch · #2 04-11-2005, 11:30 AM

I think you should check call as you have a middling strength hand. Lead with total garbage or with a good flush.

BarronVangorToth · #3 04-11-2005, 11:35 AM

A lot of people will play precisely the way the villain did without the flush as well, assuming they had everyone's favorite holding.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Nikla · #4 04-11-2005, 11:40 AM

Only reason not to bet river is if you think opponent is capable of raising on a bluff.

steveyz · #5 04-11-2005, 02:17 PM

I want to see a showdown here with top set. If you had AK, then this line is probably ok. Some, not a lot but still a decent percentage of, opponents are capable of raising the river here with KJ/JJ or some other rag two pair like J8. A few are capable of raising as a pure bluff.
Unless I know an opponent very well, I'm seeing a showdown, either by check-calling or by bet-calling.

skp · #6 04-11-2005, 06:25 PM

Given the way the hand played out, there is little difference whether the original poster holds KK or AK. I think the hand was played right except (as Nikla points out) if you are up against a guy who will bluff raise the river here with about the right frequencey. Against a habitual known bluffer, you would either checkcall, or bet and call a raise.

bobbyi · #7 04-11-2005, 08:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A few are capable of raising as a pure bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm having trouble seeing how the opponent could have made it to the river with a hand that would qualify here as a pure bluff.

steveyz · #8 04-11-2005, 09:07 PM

It's happened to me before. As I said, it's not likely but it will happen against a few party donkey.

ggbman · #9 04-11-2005, 11:37 PM

Think of it this way. If you bet and fold to a raise, you invest a bet and dont showdown, rarley getting called by worse hands. If you check call, you get to showdown a reasonable hand, induce a bluff, and get a free showdown. How is it even close?

lil feller · #10 04-11-2005, 11:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way. If you bet and fold to a raise, you invest a bet and dont showdown, rarley getting called by worse hands. If you check call, you get to showdown a reasonable hand, induce a bluff, and get a free showdown. How is it even close?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Making this play with nothing, or medium nothing is solid. You probably aren't getting called by a worse hand here, and no better hand will fold. Hero really has 2 viable options:

1. C/c and hope his hand is good and he picks off a bluff. You might miss value when a inferior hand, that would have called (not many), checks behind. But thats better then getting raised off the best hand.

2. Check hoping that the villian will bet a small-medium spade and then c/r to get him to throw it away. Not very many players will fold something like the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to a single bet, but a TAG player will bet it when checked to and might fold it when c/r.

Risking the pot by betting/folding top set is not the way to go. Try this when you get to the river on a board like this with AK [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or something like that.

lf