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#1
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In Ed's article this month, he says:
[ QUOTE ] Say you estimate that you can generate approximately 2 BB/100 hands playing $3-$6 limit hold eem. You should count on playing multiple tables, usually at least four, so you might see about 300 hands per hour. Thus, your theoretical win rate is about 6 BB/hour or $36 an hour. [/ QUOTE ] My question is -- does anyone see these tables -- $3/$6 -- tightening and improving in quality of players (this year especially) such that it isn't possible to "4-table" them anymore. It seems that it takes much more focus and careful knowledge of players to make money at these tables lately -- most players seem to be <20% VPIP and very aggressive. I use PT to find the best tables I can, but perhaps I'm not doing it the way I should. Any constructive comments would be appreciated... |
#2
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I think we're FAR away from seeing any reasonable level of competence at the $3-$6 level from John Q. Sixpack...
Barron Vangor Toth www.BarronVangorToth.com |
#3
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Really.
Have you seen some of the play there. Awful. -SFWUSC |
#4
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I haven't seen the SS online tables get tougher this year, but I can say with certainty that, in my experience, live tables are MUCH SOFTER than online tables. I've made 3/4ths of my profit live, although I've played online more. Online is soft too, but live is better in my experience.
I don't understand why Ed believes that online play is so much easier. More profitable? Perhaps, if you multitable, bonus whore, and rake return. Softer/looser? Not for me. -ptmusic |
#5
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[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why Ed believes that online play is so much easier. More profitable? Perhaps, if you multitable, bonus whore, and rake return. Softer/looser? Not for me. [/ QUOTE ] I never said online play was easier. I said that it's more profitable by far. |
#6
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't understand why Ed believes that online play is so much easier. More profitable? Perhaps, if you multitable, bonus whore, and rake return. Softer/looser? Not for me. [/ QUOTE ] I never said online play was easier. I said that it's more profitable by far. [/ QUOTE ] Fair enough - is it fair to say that you don't believe that online play is necessarily "easier", but that it is easier to make a profit? From my experience (and actually from what I've read about your experience), I've been more profitable with live play. That's because I find higher stakes live (e.g. Commerce 9/18) to be softer than lower stakes online (e.g. Party Poker 2/4). Commerce is full of players who play too loosely preflop and go too far with their marginal hands. These are exactly the kinds of opponents you talk about in SSHE. And SSHE is a big reason for my profits live and online, by the way! Back to the recent article: I really enjoyed it. But could you expand on the following sentence? "Playing live for a living drastically increases the bankroll and skill level required to generate a given income." I think I know the bankroll reasoning (gas, rake, tipping, higher-stakes-to-offset-the-fewer-hands-and-bonuses), but why is more skill needed to make a living playing poker live? Thanks, -ptmusic |
#7
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Here's the bottom line. Multitabling, you can get 300-600 hands per hour in. Live you get 30-40 hands per hour. While I agree with you that live play features many "fringe benefits"... and some not-so-fringe ones... over online play, you simply can't make up for the 8x or more hands per hour you get online. You can't even come close.
You can multitable as low as $3-$6 with a $5,000 bankroll (plus personal savings) for a healthy living. If you want to make an equivalent living playing live, we're talking at least $15-$30 and more like $20-$40 with a $20,000 bankroll or more. And if you can beat that live $20-$40 game for $40/hour for your decent living, you can use that same time and bankroll and multitable Party $15-$30 or $10-$20 6max and make $200/hour. I played/play live, not because it's more profitable, but because it's more fun for me. If I played poker primarily for the cash, I'd play online, and it isn't close. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
#8
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Im pretty much a rookie, but I have an opinion of this. Ive played 2-4 Holdem live and all sorts of microlimits on the net. The pros of net play outweigh the cons of live play x10.
Live: smoke filled casino Net: comforts of home Live: 40 hands per hour Net: two or three tables at once (for me) Live: free drinks still cost a buck (tip) Net: drinks in the fridge Live: poor table selection, almost no prior knowledge, cant avoid the sharks Net: Get up and find a new table Live: win a 10 pot, pay 10% rake, then a dollar tip Net: win a 10 pot, pay 50 cents rake, no tip. Live: dollar an hour comp for crappy buffet or whatever Net: Clear a 100 bonus while you play I used to be a big fan of live poker, but I'm not so sure anymore... |
#9
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[ QUOTE ]
Here's the bottom line. Multitabling, you can get 300-600 hands per hour in. Live you get 30-40 hands per hour. While I agree with you that live play features many "fringe benefits"... and some not-so-fringe ones... over online play, you simply can't make up for the 8x or more hands per hour you get online. You can't even come close. You can multitable as low as $3-$6 with a $5,000 bankroll (plus personal savings) for a healthy living. If you want to make an equivalent living playing live, we're talking at least $15-$30 and more like $20-$40 with a $20,000 bankroll or more. And if you can beat that live $20-$40 game for $40/hour for your decent living, you can use that same time and bankroll and multitable Party $15-$30 or $10-$20 6max and make $200/hour. I played/play live, not because it's more profitable, but because it's more fun for me. If I played poker primarily for the cash, I'd play online, and it isn't close. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for expanding. If I had to choose right now without trying both fulltime myself (one at a time!), I'd go with online. But for some players (me?), I bet it's closer than you think. For some players, playing 300-600 hands/hour even decently is a tall order. I'm single-tabling most of the time, and after 17,000 tracked hands online (since I bought PokerTracker), the online average is very close to 55 hands/hour/table. So 300-600 hands/hour is about 5-10 tables at the same time. Furthermore, my experience is that playing just one table at the $2/4 level online is tougher than playing the $20/40 at Commerce. So I can hardly comprehend playing PartyPoker $10/20 6max at 5-10 tables at once! You've got to have some serious skills for that! And I'll admit it: I don't have those multitabling skills at this point. Plus, you get all-you-can-eat free food at the Commerce when you play $15/30 or higher (and it ain't bad food at all!), and thus some of your overhead is cut down. That said, I'm getting into bonus-whoring and rake-returning lately, and I'm already making a decent profit playing online, so it may end up where I make the most money. Thanks for the article, and I look forward to the follow-ups. -ptmusic |
#10
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[ QUOTE ]
Multitabling, you can get 300-600 hands per hour in. Live [/ QUOTE ] 600 an hour??!!!! Holy crap! I struggle to keep a good solid game at 5/10 at 400 hands an hour and I prop for a living. I won't say it can't be done, but myself, anything over 4 tables when multitabling, my quality of play severely decreases especially when doing 8 hour shifts. Oh.. and about quality of play. My observations is that the quality of players have decreased at the lower levels of both online and live play. However live games are much softer than online games, and that online play is more profitable for the reasons already mentioned. And if you do turn pro, I think its critical to become a prop. |
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