What did I do wrong here or was I doomed

gyndok · #1 09-20-2004, 08:03 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

MP (t2210)
Button (t6215)
Hero (t1765)
BB (t1155)
UTG (t2155)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP raises to t450, Button folds, Hero calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Turn: (t1050) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: (t1050) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t450, Hero raises to t1315, MP calls t865.

Final Pot: t3680

Results in white below: 
MP has 8s Kc (full house, kings full of eights).
Hero has Qh Qd (full house, queens full of kings).
Outcome: MP wins t3680.

ChuckPelowski · #2 09-20-2004, 08:23 AM

.

ChrisV · #3 09-20-2004, 08:33 AM

You need to ask?

You don't think the problem might have been the cheap flop the K8 saw?

gyndok · #4 09-20-2004, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You need to ask?

You don't think the problem might have been the cheap flop the K8 saw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not so sure that is an obvious answer..

My stack is very short as is MP.

I am trying to accomplish 3 goals here..

1) conceal the strenth of my hand
2) trap the raiser for a double up
3) get away from the hand cheaply if an overcard flops and I get action

Now, any reraise I make in this situation would have to be all in as my stack was too short for anything else. I did consider that, but I was concerned that he would have to call because he was pot-committed at that point. With KK or AA no doubt, but QQ is very vulnerable to the kinds of hands MP would call an allin reraise

The once and future king · #5 09-20-2004, 09:58 AM

You need help.

The mentality that "I dont want to reraise all-in with QQ late on to a raise x3 from the cut off when I am the Sb because he might call me" Is far far far to weak.

I personaly would have been overjoyed to see that raise. No way am I giving him a cheap shot at seeing the flop and catching an over card.

All in is utterly obligatory here. Also betting with only 3 left to act is not MP it is LP.

gyndok · #6 09-20-2004, 10:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You need help.

The mentality that "I dont want to reraise all-in with QQ late on to a raise x3 from the cut off when I am the Sb because he might call me" Is far far far to weak.

I personaly would have been overjoyed to see that raise. No way am I giving him a cheap shot at seeing the flop and catching an over card.

All in is utterly obligatory here. Also betting with only 3 left to act is not MP it is LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

The MP was a tag placed by the hand converter not me..

I have played this hand 2 different ways. I have reraised all in and won with a raiser laydown and winning at showdown. I have also stared at an overpair and had a drawout.

When I saw the raise, I was not afraid to reraise, I was trying a different approach at getting a double up. I was thrilled to see I was going to get some action.

That being said if after the flop it was obvious I was beat, then I COULD get away from the hand.

tallstack · #7 09-20-2004, 01:24 PM

A couple of things from your replies stand out to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, any reraise I make in this situation would have to be all in as my stack was too short for anything else. I did consider that, but I was concerned that he would have to call because he was pot-committed at that point. With KK or AA no doubt, but QQ is very vulnerable to the kinds of hands MP would call an allin reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The scared money reraises to takes down the raise and blinds. I was trying to be sneaky and double up. Also there is no guarantee he does not fold to the reraise. The result is the same if he calls. Not to mention that but suppose he has KK or AA. Ever stared down that barrell after reraising all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that you should be concerned that he calls your reraise pre-flop. You are only a dog to AA and KK. The only other hand that comes close to being even money is AK. You are a large favorite over every other hand. Even against the top 10% of hands, you are on average a 2:1 favorite.

If you end up against AA or KK consider that you may very well have lost all your chips by calling pre-flop anyways. Your opponent will not need to hit an overcard to your QQ to beat you, and you will likely not see it coming when the money goes in.

IMO, the reraise all-in is certainly not scared money. Your opponent has already shown some strength in a situation where you very likely have the best hand. When you reraise all-in you will move up into 2nd position all the times he folds and you will move up to a very healthy t3680 stack about 2/3 of the time he calls. This move is hugely positive in terms of chipEV, and is also pretty safe in that you will increase your stack size well over 2/3 of the time (depending on how often he folds).

The flip side is calling and seeing what happens on the flop. I do not believe that QQ is worth slowplaying here. It is vulnerable to an A or K flopping and this will happen about 40% of the time. When it does, you will have to act first and will not know whether your opponent is bluffing you out if he bets.

If the pre-flop raise gets you more chips well over 2/3 of the time and you will only like the flop when you called about 60% of the time, then I do not see how calling works to your advantage here.

Dave S

gyndok · #8 09-20-2004, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think that you should be concerned that he calls your reraise pre-flop. You are only a dog to AA and KK. The only other hand that comes close to being even money is AK. You are a large favorite over every other hand. Even against the top 10% of hands, you are on average a 2:1 favorite.

If you end up against AA or KK consider that you may very well have lost all your chips by calling pre-flop anyways. Your opponent will not need to hit an overcard to your QQ to beat you, and you will likely not see it coming when the money goes in.

IMO, the reraise all-in is certainly not scared money. Your opponent has already shown some strength in a situation where you very likely have the best hand. When you reraise all-in you will move up into 2nd position all the times he folds and you will move up to a very healthy t3680 stack about 2/3 of the time he calls. This move is hugely positive in terms of chipEV, and is also pretty safe in that you will increase your stack size well over 2/3 of the time (depending on how often he folds).

The flip side is calling and seeing what happens on the flop. I do not believe that QQ is worth slowplaying here. It is vulnerable to an A or K flopping and this will happen about 40% of the time. When it does, you will have to act first and will not know whether your opponent is bluffing you out if he bets.

If the pre-flop raise gets you more chips well over 2/3 of the time and you will only like the flop when you called about 60% of the time, then I do not see how calling works to your advantage here.

Dave S

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your thoughtful answer and the mathematics involved.. It is a good guide for future action. In this case I feel I would have been called and the result would have obviously been the same.

QQ is obviously a tough hand. I cant tell you the number of times I have busted with it.. (that and JJ also, but that is another story) All of my reading has indicated that while QQ is the 3rd strongest hand in holdem, it is extremely vulnerable and playing it like AA or KK is foolish..

Thanks for your insight..

patrick dicaprio · #9 09-20-2004, 08:44 PM

your logic here doesnt make very much sense. you dont want to conceal the strength of your hand because you have too few chips to make a slowplay worthwhile here. QQ is not a hand to slowplay this way since if you are up against an A or a K you are only a small favorite to not face an overcard on the flop and lose all your chips. saying that he has to call here because he is pot committed is exactly what you want if your goal is to double up since he almost certainly will call with a worse hand.

Pat

gyndok · #10 09-20-2004, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
your logic here doesnt make very much sense. you dont want to conceal the strength of your hand because you have too few chips to make a slowplay worthwhile here. QQ is not a hand to slowplay this way since if you are up against an A or a K you are only a small favorite to not face an overcard on the flop and lose all your chips. saying that he has to call here because he is pot committed is exactly what you want if your goal is to double up since he almost certainly will call with a worse hand.

Pat

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your input.. I am more and more convinced...