My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)

lautzutao · #1 09-09-2005, 06:55 AM

My lack of checkraising in multiway pots is a huge flaw in my game, and here it cost me dearly. I figured I'd just post this hand as an example to those that share this common problem.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB

Results :
Hero has 5s 5d (three of a kind, fives).
BB has 7d 4c (straight, seven high).
CO has 8d 9d (one pair, nines).
Button has Jh 4h (straight, six high).
Outcome: BB wins 26.50 BB. 

I'm 100% sure that a bet would have been placed to my left had I checked this flop, and could have more than likely have chased out at least the big blind, making him possibly call 3 cold seeing the action that ensued my bet.

I wanted to scream when I saw the results, but realized it was my fault the pot was lost. Live and learn I guess...

@bsolute_luck · #2 09-09-2005, 07:36 AM

if it helps: you were losing that hand regardless of whether you c/r or not. Loose Button had a flush draw with the 4 and was calling down regardless...hope that helps [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

TomBrooks · #3 09-16-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if it helps: you were losing that hand regardless of whether you c/r or not. Loose Button had a flush draw with the 4 and was calling down regardless...hope that helps [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like your river bet. The heavy flop action followed by everyone just calling the turn indicate people are coming along on draws. The turn brought more flush and straight possibilities and the river completed some straights and a club flush.

Innocentius · #4 09-09-2005, 07:51 AM

I don't really understand your reasoning here. How could you be sure of a bet from your left on this flop. UTG was the pf raiser. Wouldn't you expect him to bet? If he does, and you check-raise, you can only drive BB out (if even him). It turned out that his was the draw that would come in, but you couldn't know that on the flop.

Actually, I quite like the flop line you took. Bet out, hoping that the pf raiser raises you, thus maby clearing out some of the 3 players behind him.

jrz1972 · #5 09-09-2005, 08:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand your reasoning here. How could you be sure of a bet from your left on this flop. UTG was the pf raiser. Wouldn't you expect him to bet? If he does, and you check-raise, you can only drive BB out (if even him). It turned out that his was the draw that would come in, but you couldn't know that on the flop.

Actually, I quite like the flop line you took. Bet out, hoping that the pf raiser raises you, thus maby clearing out some of the 3 players behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh.

Why do you want to clear out a bunch of players behind you? You have a monster hand on a ragged, relatively drawless board. You WANT people calling so you can get paid off on your set. Trap the field.

lautzutao · #6 09-09-2005, 09:31 AM

Alright, I understand that I'm being results oriented with my incorrect reason for checkraising. But a checkraise here is the better play yes? Maybe not 3-bet it if it's bet/raised but at least raise here if UTG bets here and it comes around to me?

bottomset · #7 09-09-2005, 09:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you want to clear out a bunch of players behind you? You have a monster hand on a ragged, relatively drawless board. You WANT people calling so you can get paid off on your set. Trap the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

um there is a fd, 2OESD possible, and a ton of gutshots, you really wouldn't mind folding out any gutshots, or at least give them bad odds

you need to worry more about your hand here, folding [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or single [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] can also be helpful.

jrz1972 · #8 09-09-2005, 09:38 AM

On the flop, there is neither a flush draw nor any likely OESD (I'm not overly worried about 42 or 64).

By trapping the field and tying people to the pot, we definitely increase our risk of getting our set cracked. But we also increase the size of the pots that we win. Most of the time, with this particular board, our opponents are drawing practically dead, and even if they get lucky we have a strong draw to a boat. In the long run I think you should be happy to have [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or somesuch coming along for the ride, even if it costs you an occasional pot. It's all EV.

Edit: I missed the two hearts on the flop every time I looked at it, so yeah I see the flush draw there now. Still, you're not driving it out anyway.

bottomset · #9 09-09-2005, 09:52 AM

I want gutshots calling 2cold incorrectly on the flop, not calling 1bet twice, both times correctly .. and if they fold, hey I picked up 4safe cards, that would have cost me this huge pot

also you guys underestimate the times UTG checks this flop with AK, AQ which outnumber the bigpairs that will bet.

lautzutao · #10 09-09-2005, 09:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
um there is a fd, 2OESD possible, and a ton of gutshots, you really wouldn't mind folding out any gutshots, or at least give them bad odds

you need to worry more about your hand here, folding [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or single [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] can also be helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this is what I was originally thinking when I first reviewed the hand. I'm not gonna drive out the FD, but I DO want to make the Gutshot's draw unprofitable.

Appreciate the feedback, please keep it coming.