Questionable Late Street Play

arsixsixwy · #1 06-14-2005, 12:35 AM

This is my first post to the forum, so I apologize if these hands aren't too interesting. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Through about 7,500 hands at $0.50/$1.00, I have a WTSD of nearly 36%, which seems way too high. I think it's because I'm using Ed Miller's mantra, which instructs us not to fold decent hands in large pots for one bet, far too loosely. I find it difficult to lay down mid-pair or better on fourth and fifth street -- I can't seem to realize a good definition of both "decent hand" and "large pot". Additionally, I might be overdoing it when I try to "maximize my chances to win a large pot" due to another misinterpretation. So, I'd like to post a few hands which, I think, exhibit the problem and, hopefully, I can get this fixed.

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Hand 1:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Obviously, I'm playing ace-high pretty aggressively here. The logic being that if I can get it down to a heads-up match, there's a much better chance that I can win with just ace-high and, if not, I still have overcards that I can hit. When the board double-paired on the end, I had to restrain myself from thinking that my ace wasn't worth betting. I was, however, in check-call mode, which could very well be a mistake. A nice question for me to ask would be: to what extent should I try to "maximize my chances to win" with just an ace?

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Hand 2:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (13.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

I hate to post a KK hand but it exhibits the problem I'm having. I believe the flop and turn play are very straightforward, I'm just cursed with poor position with which to protect my hand. Although the third diamond is scary, nobody bet out with the flush if they made it, so I tend to think my kings are still best here. Unfortunately, everybody checks to me and the best I can do is charge the ultra-longshot draws (the pot is too big to keep a gutshot out). The river is, clearly, the second worst card for me (the first being the ace of diamonds). A pair of aces beats me but also a gutshot with KT wins. I had planned on a simple fold to any bet at this point but recalled Miller's mantra: "Don't fold decent hands in large pots for one bet." There were a million and one ways I was beat, yet I still called. Am I beating myself up for this play?

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Hand 3:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO raises, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

The cutoff continually raises throughout this hand -- my intuition put him on a big flush draw, either AQs or AKs (of hearts, of course). By the turn, I ruled out an overpair because it seems like he would've raised me on this street. I will readily admit that I didn't even notice that the 8 on the river completed an outside straight draw (and a runner-runner straight draw) -- I was more concerned with it not being a) a heart; and b) an ace. I bet out and got raised by the cutoff and, once again, Miller's mantra comes into my mind -- do I really have enough proof that he has me beat to fold here?

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Any comments whatsoever are welcomed and appreciated. I can't wait to start contributing to the forums!

* Edited so that results are no longer viewable.

Firefly · #2 06-14-2005, 12:44 AM

welcome to 2+2
Hand 1:
I would have probally check, called the turn. You have outs to draw for your overcards(or you have the best hand) The check, raise makes no sense, for you aren't going to fold a better hand and any hand that has you crushed (ie..3 4's) is going to three bet

Hand 2:
I like all streets. Folding the river here might be possible only with a strong read

Hand3:
Raise or fold PF...i'm not exactly thrilled playing KJo here and if i'm going to play it i want the button so raise for the button imho.
I'm not sure why you bet the turn here...why not cap the flop? Are you sure you are ahead of CO? Reads here help alot.

aK13 · #3 06-14-2005, 01:44 AM

Flop bet on hand 1 sucks. Turn is FPS.

I didn't read the rest.

irishpint · #4 06-14-2005, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop bet on hand 1 sucks. Turn is FPS.

I didn't read the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can u not bet the flop after raising with AK? are you thinking check/raise?

on to the rest: the turn check raise sucked.

i wouldnt fold to the bet on the river when you have KK since the logically thing for him to do with an A is check/raise since you've been betting the entire time.

hand 3 you gotta raise KJ especially with only one limper before you. beat yourself up over that.

aK13 · #5 06-14-2005, 02:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop bet on hand 1 sucks. Turn is FPS.

I didn't read the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can u not bet the flop after raising with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is betting going to accomplish?

EDIT: I forgot my resolve to elaborate my posts.

1. We're not picking up the pot with a bet, especially with 5 people.
2. We're not betting for value, as we haven't hit anything, and it's unlikely our hand is best in a field of 5.
3. We don't have position, so betting will not give us a free card on the turn.

irishpint · #6 06-14-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop bet on hand 1 sucks. Turn is FPS.

I didn't read the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can u not bet the flop after raising with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is betting going to accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm see where i am from if we raise pf we bet the flop. feel free to go passive with AK, id rather win more hands.

EDIT: if you are not betting this you better say you're trying to check raise a late position bettor and slim the field down.

bozlax · #7 06-14-2005, 12:55 AM

Don't include results. They make it hard to objectively assess the hands. I haven't looked at 'em.

Hand 1: nobody but you was showing any aggression. What made you think a C/R on the turn would work. Bet that out, and then when Villan raises you with his A9 you can call anc check/fold the river. But at least you're controlling the hand.

Hand 2: again, you're the only one showing any aggression. You got sucked out on the river by somebody holding ace-rag, I imagine, but you have to call it because players in the micros will also frequently bluff on an ace on the river. Don't raise the river, because you won't get called by any hands you beat. Oh, and also you're not protecting KK in this case, you're value-raising/betting it.

Hand 3: again, you're the aggressor, and there's nothing to indicate you're beat. In fact, there shouldn't be anything that Villan might have held on to all the way to make a hand on the river. If he beat you here with anything other than J9s or AJ, he makes the Christmas-card list.

The only thing that concerns me is your comments all reflect a certain amount of MUBS. If these are the things running through your head while you play, then seek treatment. If it only comes up in post-play analysis, stop beating yourself up so much. We all get sucked out on, once in a while.

SteveL91 · #8 06-14-2005, 01:26 AM

Hand 1: Check/call the turn and check/fold the river UI. There's absolutely no point in betting again on the turn. Three players have called the PFR on a 448 board with no flush draws: you're not folding all of them for another bet.

The turn C/R is actually interesting, but it needs to be done with a read. If you know the button is willing to try bluffing when it seems a PFR is on overcards, it might not be a bad play.

Hand 2 is fine.

Hand 3 should be raised PF. With one or two limpers, I'm raising KJo. Beyond that, I'll likely limp without any knowledge of the players behind me including the blinds.

Post-flop is okay, I think. Calling the river raise is debateable, but against an unknown, I'd be inclined to call it. I haven't found many people willing to push draws that hard, but his turn play and river raise is indicative of QT or a rather overplayed J8 who caught his 3-outer.

imported_The Vibesman · #9 06-14-2005, 01:28 AM

I haven't looked at the results for your hands...

1: I'm not really crazy about the turn check raise, as I think you'll only get called by hands that beat you. I think the raise is better than just calling, though. If you do have the best hand, you want to eliminate anyone drawing. Maybe think about folding here though, one of the pre-flop cold callers could have a pocket pair they are going to the river with. Maybe button made 9s full on the turn. The pot is borderline size. I'd lean towards folding.

Hand 2: That's my line. If someone hit an A, it happens.

Hand 3: Facing no raise and in late position, I'd raise pre-flop. It would at least narrow their range of hands down, and you want to play this against as few opponents as possible.

I'm torn about capping the flop. I'm behind to a set and A-J, both hands a lot of people at this level limp at. Since I won't push anyone out, I probably just call. My edge isn't huge here, I can re-evaluate on the turn.

The turn looks safe, I'd bet at it. The river I would also just call, mostly to see what the guy has been betting like this.

TheWorstPlayer · #10 06-14-2005, 02:53 AM

hand 1: check the flop. aK's reasons are completely correct.

hand 2: well played. with a rock solid read you can fold the river. without one, played perfectly.

hand 3: well played until river. c/c river. he's not calling you with a busted draw and any made hand he has beats you. hope he bluffs his busted draw or checks behind with a hand that beats you.