How does KK fair in multi-way pot?

[JonLines]

William Hill £10k guarenteed, £20 buy-in, 500 starters.

Ok ive been struggling along with no hands, and no blind stealing oportunities. Starting stacks are 1.5k, I am on 3k, average is about 8k, and there is about 90 or so runners left. Im on button, and find KK! Wohoo, time to get all-in.

UTG 4000
UTG+1 3500
MP1 15000
Hero 3000
(there are 10 players but other players stacks arn't important)

Blinds are 150-300, UTG raises to 900, UTG+1 calls, MP1 pushes all-in, Hero call, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Now I am far too shallow a stack to even contemplate folding this hand, even if I was last to act. My questions is, in such situations, how well will KK usually fair? Would you rather have KK or 89suited? What range of hands do you put these people on?

Cheers

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
William Hill £10k guarenteed, £20 buy-in, 500 starters.

Ok ive been struggling along with no hands, and no blind stealing oportunities. Starting stacks are 1.5k, I am on 3k, average is about 8k, and there is about 90 or so runners left. Im on button, and find KK! Wohoo, time to get all-in.

UTG 4000
UTG+1 3500
MP1 15000
Hero 3000
(there are 10 players but other players stacks arn't important)

Blinds are 150-300, UTG raises to 900, UTG+1 calls, MP1 pushes all-in, Hero call, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Now I am far too shallow a stack to even contemplate folding this hand, even if I was last to act. My questions is, in such situations, how well will KK usually fair? Would you rather have KK or 89suited? What range of hands do you put these people on?

Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

you're probably against an ace or two, plus 1-2 underpairs. sometimes aces. I really really really like having KK get into this situation often [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you rather have KK or 89suited?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is not even slightly remotely close. KK is better. download pokerstove (pokerstove.com) if you don't have it already and run some sims to get a feel for these kinds of things. calling with 98s would be really bad, and folding KK would be atrocious.

[JonLines]

I've already stated that I wasn't about to go and fold KK, and dont think I have yet to this date folded KK, my point is however, how does it fair in these multi-way pots. If for instance (just hypothetically) the three other hands were AA, AK, AK... then my KK would be a rather rubbish hand, and I would definitely choose 98 suited over it. Bugstud answered my question, suggesting the sort of hands you are normally up against. My real point is, that surely in a 4 way pot, a sole pair of Kings isn't going to be a winning hand that often, a pair has a hard enough job holding up in a two way pot. Is it not more likely that a straight, flush, two pair, trips, aces will win the pot? In a 4 way pot surely the odds on me having the highest flush is unlikely?

The reason I am asking this, is that I was up against AA KQ AJ, with two of the aces being the same suits as my KK, I was practically drawing dead, I know that the main reason for this is the AA, but do you see where I am coming from?

Another reason I am asking this is because of the way a lower pair holds up against over cards, for instance 77 Might be a favourite against AQo or KTo, but, when its against both of them in a three way pot, it wins the least. (I'm at work, so this is from memory, cut me some slack if these cards happen to not work this way).

Cheers

[OatmealJoe]

[ QUOTE ]

Another reason I am asking this is because of the way a lower pair holds up against over cards, for instance 77 Might be a favourite against AQo or KTo, but, when its against both of them in a three way pot, it wins the least. (I'm at work, so this is from memory, cut me some slack if these cards happen to not work this way).


[/ QUOTE ]

77 is the slight favorite to two overcards. Against two sets of overcards (i.e. four overcards), I think 77 still has a slight edge over a three way coin flip (just over 1/3). Depending on the straight and flush possibilities, the probabilities will vary a little.

For example:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=904852
pokenum -h 7s 7h - ad th - kc qd
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s 7h 472127 34.44 895712 65.34 2915 0.21 0.345
Ad Th 445832 32.52 922007 67.26 2915 0.21 0.326
Kc Qd 449880 32.82 917959 66.97 2915 0.21 0.329

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Another reason I am asking this is because of the way a lower pair holds up against over cards, for instance 77 Might be a favourite against AQo or KTo, but, when its against both of them in a three way pot, it wins the least. (I'm at work, so this is from memory, cut me some slack if these cards happen to not work this way).


[/ QUOTE ]

77 is the slight favorite to two overcards. Against two sets of overcards (i.e. four overcards), I think 77 still has a slight edge over a three way coin flip (just over 1/3). Depending on the straight and flush possibilities, the probabilities will vary a little.

For example:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=904852
pokenum -h 7s 7h - ad th - kc qd
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s 7h 472127 34.44 895712 65.34 2915 0.21 0.345
Ad Th 445832 32.52 922007 67.26 2915 0.21 0.326
Kc Qd 449880 32.82 917959 66.97 2915 0.21 0.329

[/ QUOTE ]

The 7 of spades gives the pair of 7s the only spade (flush) out of the three hands. if you change that 7s to a 7c, they're an even 3-way split.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=904920
pokenum -h 7h 7c - ad th - kc qd
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 7h 461125 33.64 905390 66.05 4239 0.31 0.337
Ad Th 452730 33.03 913785 66.66 4239 0.31 0.331
Kc Qd 452660 33.02 913855 66.67 4239 0.31 0.331

[OatmealJoe]

[ QUOTE ]

The 7 of spades gives the pair of 7s the only spade (flush) out of the three hands. if you change that 7s to a 7c, they're an even 3-way split.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=904920
pokenum -h 7h 7c - ad th - kc qd
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 7h 461125 33.64 905390 66.05 4239 0.31 0.337
Ad Th 452730 33.03 913785 66.66 4239 0.31 0.331
Kc Qd 452660 33.02 913855 66.67 4239 0.31 0.331

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. My point was that in a three way, it said that an underpair (i.e. 77s) "wins the least" which is somewhat deceiving. It is roughly a coin flip with 77s against two overcards, and it is roughly a three way coin flip with 77s against two sets of overcards.

Basically, I'd rather have an under pair vs. overcards (with multiple opponents), especially if some of the overcards could be duplicated.

[JonLines]

Jeez guys... I said I was at work.....

Try this one

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] vs 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Enjoy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Scooterdoo]

Clearly, the one hand you don't want to be up against is AA. This basically makes you a huge dog. However, you are usually in good shape (if nobody has AA) because as someone else pointed out you are probably against 1 or 2 underpair or 1 or 2 Ax combos. Now if there are two Aces accounted for then they are drawing to basically two cards against you, and the one or two pairs are also drawing to 2 cards each. So you are likely trying to avoid a total of 4, 6 or 7 cards -- if there is one underpair and two aces you're trying to avoid 4 cards, if everyone has an underpair you're trying to avoid 6 cards and if only one player has an A you're trying to avoid 7 cards.

Of course this is overly simplistic because your opponents can also make two pair if they have a hand like QJs (which is unlikely) or flushes and straights. Assuming you are not facing AA you are approximately a 50% favorite to win against any other likely holdings that the 3 others players would have -- pretty good odds to win against 3 other players, wouldn't you think?

The problem is that often, if there are 3 players in the pot already, there is a reasonable chance you are up against AA. This is something you need to determine based on the circumstances. It's actually pretty easy to fold QQ against 3 other players who are all-in, KK is a much tougher fold.

[JonLines]

[ QUOTE ]
download pokerstove (pokerstove.com) if you don't have it already and run some sims to get a feel for these kinds of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a similar program, which I have and will run some sims on. But to do this, I wanted to get a consensus of what hands I am normally up against.