KQo against a PF 3-Bet

Grease · #1 11-23-2004, 07:52 PM

I really want to improve my KQ play, and I think that I played this one pretty sloppily. Is the PF raise ok? Is the flop as bad as I think it is? Thanks for helping me out.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

MoreWineII · #2 11-23-2004, 07:56 PM

Doesn't look bad to me at all.

I open-raise KQo from early position too.

You flopped top pair, good kicker, 2nd nut flush draw. I think that's worth a raise. Oops, gosh, reading is hard. Didn't notice it was a check-raise. Just bet out here.

Turn, ok.

River, good. I don't like chancing this being checked through.

J.R. · #3 11-23-2004, 08:00 PM

I don't get the point of the flop check-raise. Its way ahead or way behind and you probably don't fear a free card. Suppose you had AJ and the flop was Axx. Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

DataMiner · #4 11-23-2004, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a totally valid alternative. If your opponent is quite aggressive and you believe he'll bet/call all the way down, let him do the betting for you. If you make the flush, bet. If he's passive once the flop comes, I'd still bet out on the flop.

pfkaok · #5 11-23-2004, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its way ahead or way behind and you probably don't fear a free card. Suppose you had AJ and the flop was Axx. Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is so much of a way ahead/way behind is it??

I mean unless he's got AK, or AA with The A high flush draw, you're in pretty good shape here.(or your in some trouble if he's got KK, but not horrible) I like betting out here then slowing down if he raises... unless you hit the flush.

J.R. · #6 11-23-2004, 10:14 PM

Yeah, its not necessarily way behind because of the hearts, but I typed that more because the principle is the same in the sense that the optimal line involves both trying to extract the most while losing the least.

Why fold QQ/JJ/TT/AQ, and why get 3-bet by AK KK AK?

ErrantNight · #7 11-23-2004, 08:53 PM

Whereas in a way-ahead, way-behind situation where your hand is either good now or it isn't, but either way is unlikely to improved to the best hand by the river, here you are either way ahead or way behind with a significant draw (hearts) that may put you ahead even if you are not already.

i'm still not sure this calls for a check-raise, as you may need to improve your hand to win... but i don't think betting out is a terrible option. if raised, check/call the turn and consider betting the river (definitely if, as here, the hearts come).

c/r is maybe overplaying this hand a little bit... as if he doesn't have a heart (and, say, has an underpair) you may push him too easily off this hand.

so i'd say bet out, switch to call mode if he responds with aggression, and feel free to bet a heart.

J.R. · #8 11-23-2004, 10:21 PM

Whereas in a way-ahead, way-behind situation where your hand is either good now or it isn't, but either way is unlikely to improved to the best hand by the river, here you are either way ahead or way behind with a significant draw (hearts) that may put you ahead even if you are not already.

yeah, its not nessecarily way behind unless he has A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K. you are roughtly 2:1 dog to a better hand without a flush redraw, which isn't way behind. But the principle is the same as in way ahead way behind spots (especially when the opponent is aggressive and will bet worse hands postflop, which seems a safe assumption here), that's why I said that. But why risk folding TT, JJ, QQ or AQ, or getting 3-bet by better hands. Its not how far behind you are on the flop v a better hand, but the bets you miss when you fold a hand with 2 or 3 outs, and the 3 bets that get put in on the flop when you are behind.

joker122 · #9 11-23-2004, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

DataMiner · #10 11-23-2004, 08:05 PM

I always found that raising KQo in early position is bad at 3/6 and below (SSHE agrees). If you get re-raised, you're likely looking at AK/AKs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or TT. Assuming you don't improve, you lose to all of these. If you hit your K, you're only beating 15 hands: QQ (3 hands), JJ (6 hands), or TT (6 hands) and losing to 21 hands: AK (12 hands), AA (6 hands), or KK (3 hands). If you hit your queen, you're currently beating AK, but you can still be beaten if he spikes his ace.

So, getting 3-bet PF is ugly. Given that you should _fold_ KQo to any PFR, raising KQo early isn't the wisest choice.

That said, you should bet out on the flop. Even if you're behind right now, you have up to nine outs to make the second-nut flush.

The turn check is totally correct as is the river bet.

Just...don't PFR KQo in early position. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]