holy crap, I think I just played on the 3rd level

donger · #1 07-13-2005, 07:06 PM

.. And it happened at 5/10! :O

CO has TAGish stats (23/12/2.5.. 35 WTSD)

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP folds, CO raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

River: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Jerkass333 · #2 07-13-2005, 07:16 PM

I must be very far from this type of thinking because I have no idea what you're doing in this hand. I see how his turn raise is suspicious after not betting the flop, but it could be something like 55 that he wanted action on. And when he calls your 3-bet I really think he has something, even a better A-high who called the turn just to try to maybe improve on the river. I cant see you winning this hand often. Its a small enough pot on the turn to let it go.

donger · #3 07-13-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I must be very far from this type of thinking because I have no idea what you're doing in this hand. I see how his turn raise is suspicious after not betting the flop, but it could be something like 55 that he wanted action on. And when he calls your 3-bet I really think he has something, even a better A-high who called the turn just to try to maybe improve on the river. I cant see you winning this hand often. Its a small enough pot on the turn to let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this guy's style of play, we can pretty much elminate a queen from his hand range after he checks last to act on the flop. This means either a weak-ish hand like a J or some kind of flush draw.

By raising my turn lead, he's calling bullshit on my having a Q. Betting from a blind when the top card on the board pairs is a pretty common bluff against perceptive players. You're the only one who could have legitimately checked top pair on the flop, having failed a CR.

Sometimes, you have to three-bet with little or no hand in these situations to keep people from picking you off every time you lead out like this.

He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop. Therefore, I'm probably good a decent enough % of the time to look him up on the river.

This is really just a brag post on my part, because I'm proud of my developing hand reading, but I welcome criticism from better players (read: most everybody )

ddubois · #4 07-13-2005, 08:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop.

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In your hand reading mastery, you should include reading your own hand. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

donger · #5 07-13-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
In your hand reading mastery, you should include reading your own hand. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate, I don't understand.

ddubois · #6 07-13-2005, 08:05 PM

You have the ace of spades, so his flush draw can't possibly contain it.

But I just noticed the club flush draw arrived on the turn, so I should have kept quiet.

Catt · #7 07-13-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem with this is I don't think many good TAGs are going to bluff a busted draw against a turn 3-better. Maybe if you had C/R the turn and he called and then you check the river -- he can put you on a semi-bluff; but it seems to me he would be considerably less likely to do so on a turn lead and 3-bet.

luckyharr · #8 07-13-2005, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With this guy's style of play, we can pretty much elminate a queen from his hand range after he checks last to act on the flop. This means either a weak-ish hand like a J or some kind of flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand reading is great here but I don't understand the three bet. Since he's calling the three bet with either of these holdings, your fold equity is zero. You are a slighly bigger dog to a Jack than you are a favorite over a flush draw. If you think each is equally likely, then there is no value in the 3-bet unless he'll fold that weak Jack either here or to a river bet. It feels weird, but I will call down after the turn raise and check-call a non-club river (feels like this player would have bet any other stong draws on the flop.)

donger · #9 07-13-2005, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With this guy's style of play, we can pretty much elminate a queen from his hand range after he checks last to act on the flop. This means either a weak-ish hand like a J or some kind of flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand reading is great here but I don't understand the three bet. Since he's calling the three bet with either of these holdings, your fold equity is zero. You are a slighly bigger dog to a Jack than you are a favorite over a flush draw. If you think each is equally likely, then there is no value in the 3-bet unless he'll fold that weak Jack either here or to a river bet. It feels weird, but I will call down after the turn raise and check-call a non-club river (feels like this player would have bet any other stong draws on the flop.)

[/ QUOTE ]

He could be making this move with a smallish pocket pair, bottom pair, nothing at all, or a flush draw. I want him to fold everything that beats me, plus all of his nothing-at-all hands since with those, he still has 6 outs to pair up and make the best hand, and 18 bluff outs (spades and clubs) that will make it harder for me to call a river bet.

When he flat calls the three-bet on the turn, it screams flush draw, so I figured I was good against most busted flush draws, so I checked. He interpreted my river check when a blank fell off to mean that I had been bluffing (since it's weird to three-bet trips on the turn, then check a blank river), and didn't actually have a queen. I figured I beat most of his preflop-limping flush draws, so I called.

Alobar · #10 07-13-2005, 07:24 PM

If you are going to do this, I like a river bet more than I do a river call. I think you lose more by not betting in a 8BB pot and giving him the oportunity to fold an ace, or some pair+flushdraw.