NL Cash Games

[nmt09]

Hi Guys,
I want to know what resources I should be using for NL cash games? I have HOH I & II but I'm such a noob I don't know if I should be using any of these if I want the bulk of my play to be cash games. All other books I've found for cash are Limit and I don't want to play that.

I basically want to play NL cash 90% of the time and tournaments the other 10%.


So far I'm playing very few hands and I don't know if I should loosen up at the cash tables?

I am a noob too and my opinion is that you are insane if you want to jump into NL cash games.

Tournaments are one thing - they are generally small risk with a large potential reward, and if you get a decent run of cards, that can often be all you really need to finish in the money.

NL cash games require you to buy in for a larger amount of money and what you win is what you win.

The real problem is that you are MUCH more likely to run into better players at a NL table - especially as compared to a tournament - where players will likely run the gamut from very good to very very bad.

IMHO, the absolute best way to improve at first is at limit games - there you can learn how to read the strength of your hand against others and when to bet, call or fold.

Only then, once you have the basic principles down, can you expect to be truly proficient at NL.

Learn to crawl before you try to fly.

[nmt09]

The advice I've gotten so far seems to suggest that Limit and NL are two completely different animals and as such I didn't want to become proficient in one just to swap later to my preferred game.

I've played Limit on a few occasions and it just bores me to death, at the lower limits I'm unable to get anyone out of the pot and it's basically a game of luck based on who makes the best hand. With NL I think a lot more strategy goes into the game and that interests me greatly.

From what I've seen I can buyin to fairly small NL cash games for as little as most small tournament buyins.

I certainly appreciate your feedback but I honestly couldn't sit at a limit table for long, it's like watching paint dry.

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I've played Limit on a few occasions and it just bores me to death, at the lower limits I'm unable to get anyone out of the pot and it's basically a game of luck based on who makes the best hand. With NL I think a lot more strategy goes into the game and that interests me greatly.

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Even as a noob, this is all I really need to read to know that your head is in entirely the wrong place. I will leave it to my betters to explain exactly why.

Good luck.

You are going to need it.

[nmt09]

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Even as a noob, this is all I really need to read to know that your head is in entirely the wrong place. I will leave it to my betters to explain exactly why.

Good luck.

You are going to need it.


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That's a little unfair, just because I don't like playing limit games hardly means I'm going to be a bad player - as you seem to imply.

In the lower level games I've played [up to 0.50/1] people will call with almost any hand and half the table will see you to the river. Now I understand I could be holding a hand with good odds of winning compared to their holding but it seems all too easy for people to draw out on you and there is no way of fighting this off.

I'm sure that isn't the case at the higher limits but I'm hardly going to risk that kind of money as a beginner.

The way they look at it is, "well I've put x amount in already and it only costs me another x to call"

I understand this is a loosing strategy but it doesn't seem to bother them...

It seems that the whole strategy for limit is go in with the best and drop it if you think you're beat. It totally misses the betting strategy you have to contend with in NL.

Again I enjoy playing NL and if I'm planning on spending a huge amount of time studying and playing it might as well be in a game I like.

I'm certainly not trying to be a smart arse I'm just trying to understand why so many people are screaming "Limit"? If someone can point to a reason why a beginner should never start with NL if that's the game they want to master fair enough but I can't see a reason why someone couldn't be a great NL player having never spent time on limit?

From NL Hold'em I'd like to take a shot at PL Omaha.

Again thanks all for the great discussion it all helps me figure out where I'm at and what I sound be doing.

[AKQJ10]

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If someone can point to a reason why a beginner should never start with NL if that's the game they want to master fair enough but I can't see a reason why someone couldn't be a great NL player having never spent time on limit?

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My strong opinion is that there is no such reason. In other words, play NLHE if that's what you want to learn. Just make sure you're adequately bankrolled. You'll need more than the proverbial 20 buy-ins -- you're learning, hence not yet a winning player, don't forget! And play the very very small micros until you know that you're both able and adequately bankrolled to move up.

You can buy into the Pacific $.05-.10 blinds with $1, although that's only 10 big blinds -- and easily beat this game by waiting for TT, AK or better and pushing all-in. There are smaller-blind games which would be even better for your bankroll that Student can point you to; I don't know if the play is as bad there as on Pacific.

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Did that answer the question?

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SheridanCat, thanks so much for the explanation. Wow. I totally see what you're saying - don't know why I didn't pick up on this earlier from all the books I've read. I've read HOH1 and HOH2 twice already because I'm so focused on NL right now. I think I'm going to read Miller's GSIH and SSHE (again). Thank you!

[jb9]

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I enjoy playing NL and if I'm planning on spending a huge amount of time studying and playing it might as well be in a game I like.

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Agreed. Play what you like. It's a game; it should be fun.

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I'm certainly not trying to be a smart arse I'm just trying to understand why so many people are screaming "Limit"? If someone can point to a reason why a beginner should never start with NL if that's the game they want to master fair enough but I can't see a reason why someone couldn't be a great NL player having never spent time on limit?

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I can't think of a good reason. You should play what you are interested in and have the aptitude for.

You can certainly learn things playing limit hold'em that are applicable to no limit, but there is no reason why you can't learn the same things playing no limit from the start (plus you won't have to unlearn some limit specific things that can get you in trouble in no limit).

[Cooker]

I agree with Hank_Scorpio specifically because you seem to suggest that you think limit is a crap shoot or something. It definitely is not a crap shoot and can easily be beaten. I play a fair bit of both limit and NL and am a pretty decent winner at both just to let you know where I am coming from (about 4BB/100 in limit over my last 10000 hands and about 10BB/100 in NL over my last 5000 hands and I know they are small samples).

There is plenty of skill in both games and plenty of profit to be had as well. Still, it is much easier on the bankroll to be a starting limit player than a starting NL player. Also, imagine trapping someone for all their chips with a big hand only to get sucked out on in the worst way possible for all yours. If you think bad beats are tough in limit try taking a few in NL.

As for material, read the bit in Getting Started in Holdem (this will at least teach you what you don't know you don't know before you get started), the NL cash game bit in Super System, and the seciton on NL in Ciaffone's Pot-limit and No-limit poker (the whole book is good, but if you want to focus on holdem start there). The material in the latter 2 books is much more advanced and I would hold back on some of the semi-bluffing suggestions they make. At the low limit NLHE tables, few people can fold TPWK so moving in on flush or open-ended straight draws will probably be costly since so much of the value of this move comes from getting better hands to fold.

[SheridanCat]

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The advice I've gotten so far seems to suggest that Limit and NL are two completely different animals and as such I didn't want to become proficient in one just to swap later to my preferred game.


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You really should try to become proficient at both, over time. Just as you should also try to become proficient at Omaha/8 and stud, maybe 2-7 triple draw, etc. The reason is that you never know where the good games will be, so you should be ready to jump into any situation.

Interestingly, when I started playing poker in 2000, there were not many NL ring games being spread in casinos. It just wasn't available. Only in the last couple years have they really taken off. What will the poker landscape look like in three years? Who knows, so be ready.

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I've played Limit on a few occasions and it just bores me to death, at the lower limits I'm unable to get anyone out of the pot and it's basically a game of luck based on who makes the best hand. With NL I think a lot more strategy goes into the game and that interests me greatly.


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Hoooo, mama.

Poker is a game of mathematics; it's simple math, but it's math nonetheless. If you don't understand how odds work in a limit game, your NL strategy will be incomplete.

The beautiful thing about NL poker is that you aren't forced to live with the odds you're being offered from the pots as you are in limit poker. Rather, you are able to manipulate the pot odds to your advantage (and your opponents are able to do the same). If you don't understand how the pot odds work in limit poker, you can't understand them in NL poker either.

Now, you're probably wondering why I would jump to the conclusion that you don't understand pot odds. I make this assumption based on your characterization of limit as a game where you can't protect your hand and where luck reigns supreme. If you understood the odds a bit, you'd understand that you don't need to protect your hands usually.

Don't be fooled by piles of chips being shoved into the center, NL hold'em is not a game about bullying and bluffing. It's a game about manipulating the pot to your advantage and trapping your opponents.

Big bet poker is a subtle game. The strategy is interesting, and I encourage you to take it up. Just be careful and don't assume pushing in a stack of chips will win you a pot.

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I certainly appreciate your feedback but I honestly couldn't sit at a limit table for long, it's like watching paint dry.

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I had to smile at this because I often feel the same way about NL hold'em. To me, NL is a lot like I've heard combat described: hours of boredom punctuated by bouts of heart-pounding terror. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I hope that's somewhat helpful.

Regards,

T