Why are we waiting until the turn?

[Aaron W.]

I don't know what it is, but it feels like some sort of disease that's making its way around the micros. Suddenly, everyone wants to wait until the turn to raise. What's the deal? Here are some recent posts (I'm not suggesting that all of these were wrong to wait until the turn):

Wait until the turn to raise?

Another wait until the turn hand

TT - when waiting to raise doesn't protect your hand

I wait until the turn, but now I'm confused

Waiting 'till the turn

The concept of waiting until the turn isn't very complicated. Should you wait until the turn? Here are the basic things to consider:

1) How big is the pot? If the pot is small, just raise it up now. You will make very few mistakes if you raise immediately in a small pot. And "small" here means things like "no preflop raise" and "zero or one callers between you and the flop bettor".

2) How multi-way is the pot? If the pot is only 3-4 handed, raise it up now. Waiting until the turn in a short-handed pot is very often wrong.

3) Who bet? If the bet came from your right, raise it up now. Very often, you will have the best chance of protecting your hand with an immediate raise. This prevents players from picking up backdoor draws, which prevents players from drawing out on you as often.

4) How many cards hurt you? If there aren't many draws available, raise it up now. Here are some examples:

- You have a medium pocket pair (JJ-88) or a medium top pair (T9s on a T64 board) and you are only worried about an overcard falling. Raise now.
- There is just a flush draw. Raise now.
- There is just a 3-straight. Raise now.

When might you wait?

- There are both flush and straight draws out there. *CONSIDER* waiting.
- You have a weak overpair or weak top pair and there is a flush draw. *CONSIDER* waiting.

What should you *CONSIDER*? See #1, #2, and #3. The times to wait are in big pots contested by lots of players when the bet came from your left. This is not a universal characterization, but if you just stuck to these, you will avoid big mistakes.

I should emphasize this point. Failing to wait until the turn is a small error (it very often should be called a "gamble" and not an "error"). Failing to protect your hand is a big error. If you think you might make a mistake, make it the small one, not the big one.

[McGahee]

Hmm, I haven't been reading as much recently, but as of a month ago I thought not enough people were waiting for 4th street. I will check out those linked threads.

There are certainly times you wait when villian on your right bets though. I believe the KK hand in SSH is one of them, and I don't think Miller considers it a 'small' mistake.

Edit: Raise the flop in the first 2 links. The third doesn't matter I don't think, the 4th is a good flat call, the 5th I have no idea what hero is doing on the flop.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
There are certainly times you wait when villian on your right bets though. I believe the KK hand in SSH is one of them, and I don't think Miller considers it a 'small' mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

5-handed pots that are capped preflop are extraordinarily rare. If you never waited until the turn in such pots, you would be making a small mistake.

[Roadstar]

Agreed, likely a small mistake because the mistake (if at all) of failing to protect your hand by waiting to raise on the turn, is partially offset by the gain from the value raise on the flop.

[Bankuri]

[ QUOTE ]
There are certainly times you wait when villian on your right bets though. I believe the KK hand in SSH is one of them, and I don't think Miller considers it a 'small' mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

If I understand you correctly, Miller has a footnote on that hand where he indeed says waiting for the turn to raise is a small mistake (in the sense that it is less +EV). I understand now that in order to do this you need to have a pretty good hand. It's almost a slowplay...perhaps call it a semi-slowplay (akin to a semi-bluff)?

this is a great post. i would love to see some examples where waiting is correct

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand now that in order to do this you need to have a pretty good hand. It's almost a slowplay...perhaps call it a semi-slowplay (akin to a semi-bluff)?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Did you read ArturiusX's post above? He is dead on and gives a great explanation of when and why we wait.

[Jonny1723]

Hello,

I'm fairly new to poker, and to be honest, probably not very good !

I must admit, I'm guilty of often waiting until the turn to raise - However, I only ever do this if it's been raised PF, I've flopped a set, and the board is unthreatening. (say a rainbow un-coordinated flop)

If there was no PF raise, then I'll always bet out. However, usually you can be guaranteed that the PF raiser will bet out again on the flop regardless of what hits.

I'll then call their flop bet, and raise their turn bet.
(obviously if the turn is a scare card, then I'll usually just bet out)

I play at 0.50 / 1.00 by the way.

Obviously I choose to do it this way of my own accord, and don't fully know if it is the correct / incorrect play.

Can some of the experts on here please tell me why this is the correct / incorrect play ?

Thanks,

J.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I must admit, I'm guilty of often waiting until the turn to raise - However, I only ever do this if it's been raised PF, I've flopped a set, and the board is unthreatening. (say a rainbow un-coordinated flop)

[/ QUOTE ]

With a flopped set, this would be considered a slowplay. That's different from waiting until the turn to raise a strong but vulnerable hand.

Don't slowplay your sets.

[LoaferGee12]

Good post.