Questions about the supposedly loosenes in SSH by Ed Miller

[argem]

First off, I just want to start with saying that I'm a very inexperienced player who bought 'Small Stakes Hold'em' some time ago and just skimmed through it. And my question is about the supposedly loosenes and ignorance of the players at the lower limits on the internet.

Now, I find myself at a crossroads, because I like the book a lot and I'm about to begin really studying the concepts in SSH to learn Fixed Limit, but:

I feel that in the book, the authors seem to refer to recreational player who visits a card room in Vegas just to have fun, hence don't mind to play poorly. Are the online players really THAT stupid and loose as the author would like me to beleive. I mean, sure I've got the impression that most online players play poker very much for fun, but mostly to make money, dont you?

So, is it right to apply the concepts in the book online? You who are more experienced in the matter, do you think that the poker players at the lower limits (especially at Party Poker, where I mostly play) are really that loose, stupid and ignorant?

(As english isn't my native language I apologize for the spelling)

[Bytestream]

Have you played online poker yet?

I think you'll answer your own question when you see regularly see your AA an KK taken down by someone cold calling your raise with 94o.

[argem]

Yes, I've played some 10k-15k hands online so far, mostly at Party Poker. And, honestly, yes some players are extremely loose, but far from everyone. Maybe, I'm not so good at table selection, but SSH depicts everyone at the lower limits to be loose, so table selection shouldn't be an issue?

[Beavis68]

It depends on the site, UB does not seem all that loose to me, PS is definitely not that loose.

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
So, is it right to apply the concepts in the book online?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the book. The concepts apply to games with 3-5 players seeing the flop where many of these players will go too far with weak hands. This description fits the microlimits at all sites I've played at.

[ QUOTE ]
You who are more experienced in the matter, do you think that the poker players at the lower limits (especially at Party Poker, where I mostly play) are really that loose, stupid and ignorant?

[/ QUOTE ]

Loose? Yes. Stupid? I doubt it. Ignorant? Maybe so. Only the first one matters. Why disrespect your opponents?

Yes, there are many loose and ignorant(yes, you can be smart in most things, but ignorant in poker) players playing the low limit games at ALL the sites.

Just last night, I was playing the $3-$6 limit game at Poker Stars. A player called a raise and 2 re-raises preflop with a 92o. That is just plain ignorant.

You'll find this at all the sites.

[TonySanDiego]

I too have played some 10K hands over the last year, mostly at party, and I do not believe that the majority of the players are as loose, and they are definately not as passive, as depicted in SSHE.

That being said, I study my Poker Tracker religiously after each session, and I do see that the calling and raising standards are not up to what Miller et al would recommend.

But they are not "leaking money", except perhaps on Sat night. Most are very aggressive and apparently have at least a nodding acquaintance with TOP, HEFAP, and SSHE.

And I am stuck pretty good for Sept and so far, Oct.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
I too have played some 10K hands over the last year, mostly at party, and I do not believe that the majority of the players are as loose, and they are definately not as passive, as depicted in SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]
The loose and passive Ed is talking about is much like the live 2-4 and 3-6 games I find in California. People are much more aggressive on the internet. There is a 'tight' chart in the preflop section that covers more of like what you should play when on the internet. I only sat down for a couple of hours but the 'tight' chart seems to fit Bellagio 4/8 as well.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
But they are not "leaking money", except perhaps on Sat night. Most are very aggressive and apparently have at least a nodding acquaintance with TOP, HEFAP, and SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]
Puh-lease. What levels are you playing at on Party? Do you really think that "most" players on their know or have read "Theory of Poker," "Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players," or "Small Stakes Hold'em"? The play at the small stakes games up to $3/6 is generally atrocious, and if you're not at a table where multi-way flops are the norm, switch tables.

Also, and more importantly, even players who are tight and aggressive preflop at small stakes games tend to suck postflop, which is much more important anyway. While my sample size for them is admittedly small, I have stats on many players who are reasonably tight and aggressive postflop and whose postflop play is just awful. Weak-tight, inappropriately aggressive, timid, whatever--they suck.

When I first started playing hold'em, I was tight and aggressive preflop and didn't have a clue postflop, but I felt like simply being a little more disciplined than my opponents should have been enough to make me a winner, and I was wrong.

I agree that B&M games tend to be looser and more passive than their B&M counterparts, but the texture of most small stakes Party games is exactly what the postflop concepts in "Small Stakes Hold'em" are aimed at. Even if you "only" have an average of 4 players seeing a flop, they're calling with hands they should fold, calling with hands they should raise, raising with hands they should call, checking with hands they should bet, etc., and are thus highly exploitable and profitable to play against. (Check out Sklansky's essay "The Eight Mistakes in Poker" for a more in-depth explanation of the mistakes you'll see at the tables on a hand-by-hand basis.)

[ QUOTE ]
And I am stuck pretty good for Sept and so far, Oct.


[/ QUOTE ]
Results? Small sample size? Who cares.

[arabie]

If you play party, .5/1, 1/2, or 2/4, virtually all the tables are loose with the kinds of players SSH describes. As you get higher from there, table selection becomes more of an issue. To your question on where the books concepts can be applied, the answer is to apply them only where there are weak loose players with 4+ calling a pot. However, the book still has many concepts that can be applied to tigheter games, although, there is better material that contains the correct variations for that type of game, like Hold Em for Advanced Players.