mid pair HU vs BB aggressor

detruncate · #1 10-15-2005, 03:49 PM

In the light of day it seems pretty obvious that most of my current issues stem from opening up my game without the requisite post flop skills, so I'm going to break things down and see if I can plug enough leaks to slow down the bleeding. Also wouldn't mind if the deck decided to cooperate a little more, but trying to do something about that seems to require learning another language and tracking down a live chicken (and quite frankly I'm not sure that the chicken wouldn't have the best of it HU).

Anyhoo... I've played about 2 orbits with Villain. I haven't seen him step out of line so far. If he's been paying attention he would have noticed me folding the flop a lot, including a couple check/folds after raising pf. In other words, I've been sending up weak/tight flares. Table has several LAGs but there hasn't been that much aggression either pre or post flop during Villain's orbits.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: grasshopper is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, grasshopper raises, 3 folds, 1 folds, BB 3-bets, grasshopper calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, grasshopper ???

This sort of thing happens quite a bit. Not necessarily a blind steal/resteal, but might could be. Seemingly thinking opponent. What do we like?

SlantNGo · #2 10-15-2005, 04:14 PM

Call, and see what the turn brings. I would probably call down if offered favorable turn & river cards.

kapw7 · #3 10-15-2005, 04:22 PM

I wouldn't like to fold b/c a. you cannot be that sure (given the pot odds you get) you are behind and b. you have position
So it's raise or call. I think you make money here by 3 ways: Making him fold (obviously), Making him draw with bad odds, let go when it is obvious you are behind.
So one line: Raise the flop and let go if he bets again. If he checks, bet and fold to a C-R.
Calling is not bad as well and you can induce a turn bluff bet sometimes (when you are ahead of course). I think raising the turn would be the best in that case. Our hand is very vulnerable to be outdrawn so we need to push him out.

detruncate · #4 10-15-2005, 05:19 PM

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: grasshopper is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, grasshopper raises, 3 folds, 1 folds, BB 3-bets, grasshopper calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, grasshopper calls.

I decided to just call since I'm in position and can re-evaluate on the turn.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper ???

This is a potentially interesting turn. Anyone have thoughts about what the check means?

lautzutao · #5 10-15-2005, 05:25 PM

This tells me one of 2 things. Either we're WAY behind and the Big C/R is coming, or he has a PP and is afraid of that A, and we're possibly ahead. I check here and call a bet on the river. Might induce a bluff from a sensible player, or get a cheap showdown against a hand you're behind.

digitalis · #6 10-15-2005, 05:44 PM

I think getting C/R'd here is very bad. I check the turn and call the river if it isn't another broadway.

nomadtla · #7 10-15-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think getting C/R'd here is very bad. I check the turn and call the river if it isn't another broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if it's another heart? just thinking out loud.

detruncate · #8 10-15-2005, 11:08 PM

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: grasshopper is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, grasshopper raises, 3 folds, 1 folds, BB 3-bets, grasshopper calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, grasshopper calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper checks.

I might have missed an opportunity to push off a better PP since it's quite likely that I'm on overs when I call the flop. I don't think he checks with an Ace unless he also has a flush draw. He may or may not bet a made flush -- a decent Ace doesn't love giving a free card and I'd have to be a little concerned about being bluff/semibluff c/r'ed by a worse hand so I'm going to have to think about it before I fold. Checking a bigger PP with a flush card seems reasonable.

I have no idea if Villain is thinking any of these things, of course. What I do know is that I can fold to a c/r and might sometimes steal the pot with a bet. On the other hand, I'm not that worried about giving a free card since there aren't many draws that don't include a made hand I'm behind.

1/4 of the time that Villain's on an overpair he also has a flush draw. He can't like check/calling without, but he might just be resigned to showing down and/or betting a 4th flush card on the river. He also might have hit TP or MP on the flop and think that he has some 2-pair outs if behind.

River: (4.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper ???

The river doesn't change anything for me. He might find it a bit scary, or he might decide that I'm now less likely to have one -- could be reasonable to assume that I'd raise a safe turn with TP rather than popping the flop. But I doubt that it has much effect on his thinking unless he sees a pair and thinks, "Scary ace and now scary trips. Crap."

The bluffing value of the A is probably gone after the turn check through, or certainly diminished. On the other hand, a flush card will obviously not be a factor any longer, so we don't have to be as efficient in our bluff. On the other other hand Villain no longer has to worry about having to put chips in on two streets.

So... any bettors?

#9 10-15-2005, 11:47 PM

I think the value of betting is gone. The T is in no way scary for villian. If you were going to fire, it should have been on the A.

Check.
I can't see you folding any better hands (getting bluff raised here would suck goats) and any hand calling has you beat.

albedoa · #10 10-15-2005, 11:54 PM

Why would Villain attempt another check-raise after the first one failed?

I bet this. Villain is telling you he doesn't have a confident hand.