Clemens/Damon Roids Rumors

[The Armchair]

These rumors are totally irresponsible, true or not, but because they are all over sports message boards (Astros and Red Sox ESPN boards, a few college sports boards, etc.) I figured I'd start a thread here denouncing such rumor mongering. My preemptive strike, if you will.

MLB did itself a great disservice by not starting to test for this stuff years ago, when other leagues did. Instead, now every player is subject to whispers upon the whim of a yente. I'm a Mets fan -- I'm far from a Roger Clemens fan -- but I do appreciate greatness when I see it. The fact that rumors can fly like this is a terrible thing for the game I love, and I hope that no one after Rafi gets caught. If you're doping, retire. If you need to spread a rumor, say Mike Piazza is gay. (We don't care, and I think he can handle it.) But stop cluttering the rumor mills with this stuff. If someone is caught doping, he'll be punished and we will all be notified. Until then, the witch hunt has to end.

[JayLear]

I agree with your take on the way baseball handled this. They buried their heads in the sand as juiced "heroes" salvaged the game from the mess they made of it in the early '90's. Then they pretended to be mortified by the problem when it was recently "brought to their attention". I refuse to be surprised by these dopes when they are found out. I am cynical by nature, especially in this instance. I have players that I suspect, and as far as I'm concerned they're guilty until proven innocent.

[The Armchair]

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I refuse to be surprised by these dopes when they are found out. I am cynical by nature, especially in this instance.

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I have players that I suspect, and as far as I'm concerned they're guilty until proven innocent.

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There's a big difference between these two sentiments. The former I'm OK with, but the latter bothers me.

A few days ago, Buster Olney was on ESPN Radio, rationalizing why he'll vote Rafi into the Hall. His basic argument was that this is the Steroid Era, akin to the Dead Ball Era or pre-integration era. But it's not.

Many, many players in MLB probably used steriods. Many certainly did not. I posted earlier about Palmiero's similarity scores and how without doping, he would probably finish similar to Harold Baines or John Olerud. Olerud, one can safely assume, never used steroids. (I am not insinuating Baines did -- in fact, that too would surprise me. I use Olerud because his career was more a contemporary of Palmeiro's than was Baines'.)

Why, then, should we assume Olerud's stats are inflated? The Dead Ball era affected everyone. The post-68 lower mound affected everyone. The juiced ball era (if not 'roid related) affected everyone. Steroids only affect those who take it or those who face a doper.

For those reasons, we really must assume innocence absent evidence contrary. Otherwise, we punish a lot of truly innocent players, not because we assume they were doping, but because we instinctively deflate their honest stats.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
A few days ago, Buster Olney was on ESPN Radio, rationalizing why he'll vote Rafi into the Hall. His basic argument was that this is the Steroid Era, akin to the Dead Ball Era or pre-integration era. But it's not.

Many, many players in MLB probably used steriods. Many certainly did not. I posted earlier about Palmiero's similarity scores and how without doping, he would probably finish similar to Harold Baines or John Olerud. Olerud, one can safely assume, never used steroids. (I am not insinuating Baines did -- in fact, that too would surprise me. I use Olerud because his career was more a contemporary of Palmeiro's than was Baines'.)

Why, then, should we assume Olerud's stats are inflated? The Dead Ball era affected everyone. The post-68 lower mound affected everyone. The juiced ball era (if not 'roid related) affected everyone. Steroids only affect those who take it or those who face a doper.

[/ QUOTE ] mail this to Busters stupid ass.

[The Armchair]

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mail this to Busters stupid ass.

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He has the power of the last word, so I'd rather his idiocy die with that radio broadcast.

[ThaSaltCracka]

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mail this to Busters stupid ass.

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He has the power of the last word, so I'd rather his idiocy die with that radio broadcast.

[/ QUOTE ]this idiocy won't die. 7 years from now, or whenever Palmeiro is eligible, people will be saying the same thing. [censored], 2 years from now people will be saying that about McGwires overrated POS ass.

[JayLear]

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For those reasons, we really must assume innocence absent evidence contrary. Otherwise, we punish a lot of truly innocent players, not because we assume they were doping, but because we instinctively deflate their honest stats.

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I mentioned that I had people that I suspect. I have reasons for that, most of which are performance/appearance related. Clemens is not one that I would suspect. I suspected Raffy even before he was mentioned in Canseco's book, based on his massive statistical acceleration. The timeline in Canseco's book made perfect sense. When Raffy denied it, I laughed. Bonds is another one -- the way his body changed and power numbers went up in a short period just can't be coincidental. And now there's a few flames around Bonds to go with the smoke. Again...it's just to much to be a coincidence. I wouldn't pull guys names out of a hat like Damon and Clemons. If somebody had some proof, I'd certainly entertain it.

Bonds? Sosa? McGwire? Giambi? Sheffield? Palmiero?

Just to name a few...as far as I'm concerned, they're guilty.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think Clemens took roids.

[pokerdirty]

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I think Clemens took roids.

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[Non_Comformist]

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I think Clemens took roids.

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I wouldn't go this far but I don't see any reason to complete dimiss the possibility as being absurd. He's either on some type of performance enhancer or he is a freak of nature. If he he sure picked a better type than bonds because he was able to avoid the whole mellon heasd syndrome.