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#1
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Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter
Dude here is 50/30/2. Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls. Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds. Turn: (4 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls. River: (10 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> SB checks, Hero checks. Final Pot: 10 BB This dude was a LAG, but I can't remember the numbers. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls. Flop: (4 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls. Turn: (3 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls. River: (9 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> SB checks, Hero checks. Final Pot: 9 BB I'm on a nice 120 BB downswing the last few days and I'm 90% sure made these plays out of frustration, both within a few minutes of each other. They are in no way standard for me. There may be some merit to the first one, however. I need to think about it now. |
#2
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
in hand 1 will the guy not fire off a desperation bluff with a busted draw if that's what he has on the turn?
meaning you will always get 3 bets out of him by just calling down if this is his holding. you will also never risk being capped, and you also keep the chance to raise him on a river T or A, as opposed to him check/calling after your sign of strength on the turn. |
#3
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
[ QUOTE ]
in hand 1 will the guy not fire off a desperation bluff with a busted draw if that's what he has on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] This was something I was thinking about. Problem is, not everyone will do this. MOST will, but not all. Also, if this is a total bluff, I'd like him to fold to my turn 3-bet right there. So there is another side to it. [ QUOTE ] You will also never risk being capped [/ QUOTE ] If he's capping, I'm folding. I know how to handle a cap fine, so it's not a big issue. [ QUOTE ] you also keep the chance to raise him on a river T or A, as opposed to him check/calling after your sign of strength on the turn [/ QUOTE ] This doesn't mean anything. Either way I can get in 1 extra bet if I hit on the river. |
#4
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
yeah, that is the other side - having him fold 6 outs here getting 9:1 is great.
this is a very hard problem to quantify really - on this board i would assume there are too many made hands or worthy draws that he will definitely call with to really make this factor very significant. i still think the fact that he is likely to lead with his bluffs unimproved is the overriding factor. |
#5
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
[ QUOTE ]
i still think the fact that he is likely to lead with his bluffs unimproved is the overriding factor. [/ QUOTE ] Why? I can get him to put in the same amount of bets (except now guaranteed), but with the added benefit of him folding hands I want him too. Also, I was going to put in 3 bets here anyways, so there is no downside I can find to 3-betting the turn. The only thing that screws with me is him donking a blank river as a bluff. I doubt this happens much though after I show so much turn strength; he can't expect a fold. |
#6
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
"i still think the fact that he is likely to lead with his bluffs unimproved is the overriding factor."
This is a correct thought in many situations, where you get your 3bets if he misses but save a bet when he hits. But it is also very important to show LAGs that when they checkraise the turn, they are risking more than just 2 bets. If you can get a 50/30/2 to ease up and check-call more often vs. you, now you have a bona-fide fish at your table (rather than a fish who can bite every so often). |
#7
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] you also keep the chance to raise him on a river T or A, as opposed to him check/calling after your sign of strength on the turn [/ QUOTE ] This doesn't mean anything. Either way I can get in 1 extra bet if I hit on the river. [/ QUOTE ] yeah you're right |
#8
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
i cant see how your line is superior to calling down, especially against the lag who will bet when he misses anyway.
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#9
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
[ QUOTE ]
i cant see how your line is superior to calling down, especially against the lag who will bet when he misses anyway. [/ QUOTE ] Read my posts. You'll see my reasoning. Let me know why you disagree. I think hand #2 is more interesting, but I haven't had a chance to think about it too much yet. |
#10
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Re: Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)
So with hand 1...
I'm folding to almost any bet on the river, unless I improve. If I had just called, I probably fold to completed draws. This should make a difference IMO, because in these cases I was only going to put in 2 bets originally and now I've put in 3. On the flip side, if I hit, I've gotten in 4 big bets instead of just 3, so the effect of not putting in that 3rd bet on the river by folding is mitigated. Also, there is some % of the time I'm going to call a river draw completing card. It's very hard to compute all of this, but at least I'm coming up with some reasons against what I did. Not sure how strong the arguments are either way, though I'm sure the knee-jerk reaction is to just call the turn. At the very least, exploring other options will prove a decent learning tool. |
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