Moving up (and down) in limits: Bankroll ?

[jhall23]

So there are frequently bankroll ?'s, but usually all I see is in regards to how big a roll you need to move up a level. I haven't really ever seen any comments on when it is suggested to drop down if you have a bad run or just can't hack it when you move up a level.

So I am considering using a 20 buy-in rule for my self to play a given roll. The idea is to move up as soon as I have 20 buy-ins for the next level. I haven't yet decided whether I am going to have a minimum number of hands played before I move up just to verify I am actually beating the level. I am pretty conservative so I probably will but Bruiser brought up some good points that moving up to a tougher game may not be best shorterm EV it may help your long term by making you better quicker.

So anyway consider I use 20 buy-ins as my roll. When should I move down. Off the top of my head I am thinking that the 1/2 point (15 buy-ins) that way If I run into a bad run at the next level down it would be less likely to make me drop down an additional level.

Can any of you guys who have gone through different levels comment on this and share your experience when moving up?

Just to note, I initially deposited some money online and my goal is to just work of this and never re-deposit any of my personal money. That is why I would would drop down a level if my roll starts getting depleted. It's not that I couldn't put more money in I just want to keep my "poker money" seperate from everything else so I am being responsible with it. So even if I know I can confidently beat the level I am at I am going to force myself to move down if my bankroll takes a hit.

Thanks!

[DaveduFresne]

Are you a recreational player? From your post I'm pretty sure that you are, but just in case you're not this is important information to know when determining bankroll needs.

Since I've been a winning player, probably the worst run I've had is ten buy ins down. A run that bad is pretty unusual. Perhaps the fact that I multitable smooths things out, although there seems to be an occasional nightmare scenario where I lose on all four tables at once.

Being a recreational player (as I'm assuming you are) going broke isn't the end of the world as it is for a poker pro. However, you still probably want to make money at it, and not have to pay for it without outside money.

What I reccomend is you get forty buy ins for the next level up before moving there. (So for a 400 NL game you need 16K). The reason I say this is because your psychological bankroll is such an important factor to how well you play. You really have to be completely comfortable losing four buy ins at whatever level you decide to play, because runs like this happen all the time if you are at all an aggressive player.

Also, just because you're a winning player at the level you're at now does not necessarily mean you will be at the next level right away. You may even be the fish for a couple of weeks. Play is usually considerably stronger when going up a level. You don't have any notes on players so you may lose a few buy ins before you realize certain guys are only betting with the nuts, and your second nuts are no good against them.

And for me, I tend to play too loose when out of my comfort zone. It goes against what you might think, but at stakes I'm comfortable at, I make the correct laydowns (most of the time) but when I'm uncomfortable, and I've gotten what to me is a lot of money in the pot, I hate to fold and give it away to my opponent, even if my read tells me its the right move.

Its tough to move back down once you moved up a level, because making that kind of money takes twice as long as it did at the higher level, so I reccomend being as prepared as possible before making that leap. Also, now that online pokers been around for awhile, the good players advance up to higher stakes, while if you have been a fairly low stakes player, you may not have had to contend with many seasoned players.

I know twenty sounds like a lot, but if you're conservative like me you may find forty makes for a smoother transition.

Good luck at the tables.

David

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]

Being a recreational player (as I'm assuming you are) going broke isn't the end of the world as it is for a poker pro. However, you still probably want to make money at it, and not have to pay for it without outside money.


[/ QUOTE ]

To be clear, this somes my situation up pretty good. I have no intention of going pro. I just want to be responsible and never reach back into my wallett to re-finance my poker. Thats not to say that I don't play alot, I do, I just am perfectly well off and happy with my software engineering carreer and would probably lose some lover for the game if I were to play as a semi-pro/pro. My goal is to just keep getting progressivley better at this hobby I really enjoy.

Thanks for the reply,some good stuff to consider.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, just because you're a winning player at the level you're at now does not necessarily mean you will be at the next level right away. You may even be the fish for a couple of weeks. Play is usually considerably stronger when going up a level. You don't have any notes on players so you may lose a few buy ins before you realize certain guys are only betting with the nuts, and your second nuts are no good against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am perfectly aware of this and realize as I start moving out of my comfort zone even if I am winning I may just be having a good run. That is why I think it will be important to drop back down before I get to my required roll to play at the next level down. I figure I need to be able to lose several buy-ins to allow me to keep with my aggressive style

[DaveduFresne]

Glad you found my advice helpful.

I think if you really are able to discipline yourself and move back down at 15 buy ins, you may not need to wait for 40. You just have to be honest with yourself on this one.

Be careful though, it sounds like you have a good career (much better than playing poker for a living I think) and from experience I can tell you big losses can have an adverse affect on you at work, and that's the last thing you want.

Good luck at the tables.

David

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
What I reccomend is you get forty buy ins for the next level up before moving there. (So for a 400 NL game you need 16K).

[/ QUOTE ]

if he is a winning player he doesn't need NEARLY this much. 20 buyins will do.

[DaveduFresne]

Yes, but he's a smallstakes player, and a move one level up is a pretty significant change in the lower stakes.

Just because a person dominates one level, there is no guarantee he will dominate the next.

David

[kagame]

id suggest trying out a new level before completely moving up

that way you can tell if youre outclassed

[NiceCatch]

There's alot of wisdom in what Mr. DuFresne said. I completely agree that it is much tougher to make those big laydowns (even when you know you should) at the higher levels, just because the amount of money in the pot is significant to your bankroll. I think building to 40 buy-ins is a great idea, and almost a guarantee that whether or not you are ready for the next level, you will be more apt to play correctly in big-pot situations.

I would especially say this is important when making the jump from 1/2NL ($200 max buy-in) to 2/4NL ($400 max buy-in), especially short-handed. The skill level of players at 2/4NL and above is seemingly leaps and bounds ahead of those at 1/2NL, and I've known several very good 1/2NL players who never managed to raise their games, despite very deep bankrolls (~$25k and more).... which is to say that, at the very least, a deep bankroll is a must.

[gomberg]

Although I agree that working to 40 bankrolls can't really be too bad an idea - I've never had a downswing larger than 6-7 buy-ins in the last 2 years, and that downswing was at the higher limits. At the lower limits, I think my biggest downswing was probably 3 buy-ins. I may have been extremely lucky, but if playing full tables, I think 15 is plenty. I just moved that number up a little bit every time I move up a level. So for 5-10, I need to keep my bankroll around 20 buy-ins. I'll start taking shots at 10-20 when I'm at 20 buy-ins and try to play it a lot when I'm at 25. - and so on. It's worked for me so far.

[NiceCatch]

This is a completely psychological issue. Sure you probably will never go down 15 or 20 buy-ins, but the question is, how much of a psychological effect will losing 5 buy-ins have if your roll is 20 buy-ins? If you're not disciplined enough to move back down in stakes, it could be disasterous.

This is very dependent on the player. You have to gauge for yourself how much of a hit you can take given your bankroll, and whether the size of your bankroll is affecting your play (IMO it should have absolutely zero impact on your play; if it does, you need to play at lower stakes).