Unusual semi bluff, good or bad

[BobboFitos]

PStars .5/1. I'm in the big blind with ~110, MP has 70, SB just sat and bought in the max. (But he's not important)

I get dealt 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Folded to MP, who raises to 4$. SB calls, I call. Pot 12$ minus rake.

I've never played with SB, MP is aggressive who likes to open raise when folded to him with a wide array of hands, but he's a good player.

Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, I check, MP bets 12, SB quickly folds. I push.

Comments appreciated...

[willie24]

i really like it.

of course its a huge gamble, but i think its a good spot for it. hes going to be hard pressed to call you with anything less than 2 pair. you have to know that he's capable of folding AK though to try this.

if he calls with a high ace you have 6 outs which isn't that bad. if you lose, this is decent advertising.

[BobboFitos]

Well... Maybe I was the only one who felt this was a semi interesting hand. Perhaps my results will induce a little bit more discussion, as people here do better with results oriented thoughts.

He called after using a tiny bit of time bank, I hit my 4 on the river.
He had AQo...


As for the semibluff, even though I got lucky and won, I dont know if this was a good move or not. I liked it even though I got lucky, but he ranted at me for a tiny bit of time. (Saying he "knew" I had a set but thought I could've had a weaker ace, too... He really didn't expect to see 4s I think) I feel my all in here folds a bunch of hands of which he'd raise with, (such as 9s to Ks) and maybe fold a weaker Ace. (He would open raise with AJ, but if he called with AQ, I think he calls with AJ, too; I didn't expect him to fold an ace in this spot, but I also wasn't TOO far behind an ace) He also would've open raised with something like KQ, first to enter, and fire at the pot as the PFR, so I expected he would fold that, too.

Hopefully this sparks like one or two more posts.

[Kaz The Original]

I'd like it better if there weren't two diamonds.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like it better if there weren't two diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats interesting;
makes it seem like I'm not semibluffing with the flush draw. But - the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] was out, so I'm not semibluffing with the Axs hand, and I think my opponent in this spot is observant to know I'm not calling any raises with Kx suited.

[Randy Burgess]

As a long-time limit hold'em player, I've only been playing NL for a month, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Phil Hellmuth, TJ Cloutier and other top players all decry what Hellmuth calls the "slider" mentality common to inexperienced Internet players. I see a lot of it in my live baby no-limit games ($1/$2, $500 max buy-in): guys willing to bet their whole stack on a not-very-strong hand. Typically they get away with it a few times and then get taken to lunch when they run up against a real hand. Yesterday a guy slid in on me with top pair, King kicker on a small straight-gap flop. Well, in fact I had flopped the nut straight, and there went his stack. I suppose he thought he was "semi-bluffing" too - figuring even if he didn't have best hand, he could get me to fold a better hand like two pair etc.

So I would characterize your adventure here as a "slide," not as sound tactics or strategy. You got very lucky drawing out, but the hand is mostly interesting to me as an example of what not to do.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
As a long-time limit hold'em player, I've only been playing NL for a month, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Phil Hellmuth, TJ Cloutier and other top players all decry what Hellmuth calls the "slider" mentality common to inexperienced Internet players. I see a lot of it in my live baby no-limit games ($1/$2, $500 max buy-in): guys willing to bet their whole stack on a not-very-strong hand. Typically they get away with it a few times and then get taken to lunch when they run up against a real hand. Yesterday a guy slid in on me with top pair, King kicker on a small straight-gap flop. Well, in fact I had flopped the nut straight, and there went his stack. I suppose he thought he was "semi-bluffing" too - figuring even if he didn't have best hand, he could get me to fold a better hand like two pair etc.

So I would characterize your adventure here as a "slide," not as sound tactics or strategy. You got very lucky drawing out, but the hand is mostly interesting to me as an example of what not to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me... But TPWK has runner/runner outs vs the nut straight in your example...

It was next to impossible for this player to have flopped the straight, (holding 2-4; I had 2 4s, and he raised preflop...) so I assumed all my outs were clean. Big difference between a semibluff with a 30% win rate vs a top pair weak kicker "bluff" with a 2% chance of winning.

pokenum -h ac qs - 4d 4c -- ad 3d 5c
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 5c Ad 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Ac 690 69.70 292 29.49 8 0.81 0.701
4c 4d 292 29.49 690 69.70 8 0.81 0.299

In addition, Hellmuth and Cloutier are referring largely to tournament play where sliding is often a "more correct" strategy due to small stack to blind ratios. My all in, after "calling" his 12, wasn't too much of an overbet of the pot, and probably the same way I'd play a set. (Although hoping he WOULD call me with an Ace)


As for sound tatics, this isn't a play I would normally make, which is why I posted it; for feedback. So far there has been some positive and some negative, so I really don't know what to think.

[willie24]

what he did here was not nearly as bad as leading out allin on the flop would have been had he had top pair, good kicker.

the reason of course being that he still has a 25% chance against almost all the hands that button might call with.

what he did was by definition a semi-bluff. i think his stack size relative to pot size was almost perfect for this to work.

[cornell2005]

no, really bad.

you know mp very likely has a high ace. the last thing you want to be doing in lower nl games is trying to make bad players fold top pair hands. i wouldnt even make this move if the game was 3/6 and knew the player is capable of folding hands. the risk/reward is way out of whack here. also consider that many players wont fold any ace hand here. last, this is pretty much a pure bluff, not a semi bluff.

[willie24]

against a high ace he is 25% to win at showdown. id say that qualifies this as a semi-bluff