Realizing my big pair is beat

johnnycakes · #1 08-11-2005, 01:20 PM

I played these three hands last night.

I can't remember any reads I had, other than PT stats, which I can't review now because my hard drive on which I have (had) PT installed died.

I do remember that the opponents in hands 2 and 3 both were VPIP around 50%.

These hands are listed in the order of interesting-ness.

I feel especially unsure about hand 2.

Party Poker Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Too weak against an unknown?

Party Poker Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Just call down from the turn?

Party Poker Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

tyler_cracker · #2 08-11-2005, 02:55 PM

I'm guessing the reason you're not getting any responses about this is because there are too many hands in this post. They're sort of related, but still.

In hand 1, i don't see very much that we're ahead of (KQ/JJ/TT) and we're only getting 8:2 on a calldown line. I hate folding this here because i fall in love with my big PP, so maybe you can justify a calldown to see what an unknown would play this way.

I've been reading a lot of hands where the check/call WA/WB line is best. Does that apply here, where we 3-bet preflop and then just get called on the flop? Could we really check behind the turn here?

In hand 2, i doubt villain is capping with just a straight draw. He might do this with AJ/KJ(/QJ/JT), and the fact that he only called your turn raise suggests one of these as well, as opposed to two pair. The donkbet on the river is weird, so i think you just call there.

I think your turn raise is only going to get you 3-bet by better hands and win you the same amount against worse hands (who will probably check/fold UI on the river). That 7 is a pretty scary card, so when he donkbets, you have to just call instead of raising, and we would have saved 1 BB here (assuming you lost).

In hand 3 you're obviously not going to fold getting 6.5:1 on your nut flush draw, and you're probably good often enough to call one more on the river.

baronzeus · #3 08-11-2005, 02:57 PM

Hand 1 is fine.

Hand 2 call down, maybe raise the river when the board pairs.

Hand 3 it's close on the river. I'd say you probably win 1 in 10 to a queen but it's not a horrid call.

johnnycakes · #4 08-11-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 call down, maybe raise the river when the board pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go into call-down mode at what point?

Thanks for the comments.

baronzeus · #5 08-11-2005, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 call down, maybe raise the river when the board pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go into call-down mode at what point?

Thanks for the comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a higher limit game than I normally play, I think, but at 3/6 and 5/10 I would call down after the flop cap, and give the villain credit for 2 pair or better. A raise on the river isn't horrible but I still think you are better off just calling.

johnnycakes · #6 08-11-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This is a higher limit game than I normally play, I think, but at 3/6 and 5/10 I would call down after the flop cap, and give the villain credit for 2 pair or better. A raise on the river isn't horrible but I still think you are better off just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I actually give him credit for 2 pair or better, I should be folding the turn.

I guess you mean, just call down and hope there is a > 23% chance he's overplaying one pair.
Otherwise, I should fold the turn.

(23% comes from: 6.75BB on turn + his turn bet + his river bet : my turn call + my river call. 8.75:2)

Right?

baronzeus · #7 08-11-2005, 03:24 PM

You have 8 outs on the turn if he has 2 pair? I think. Add that to the slight chance that he's overplaying some random AJ or KJ or something and subtract the chance that he has T8 or osmething stupid and you are drawing dead, and you played this fine, IMO

Brunger · #8 08-11-2005, 03:17 PM

Hand 1 What about checking the turn and calling the river .

Hand 2 is fine with me and I wouldn't argue with anybody who liked a river raise when the board pairs.

I think I can find a turn 3-bet a lot in hand 3 he could easily have JJ KQ AQ as he didn't cap pre flop which is commmon with QQ and didn't raise the flop which he prolly would with a spade draw and we are drawing to the nuts anyway.

JerseyTom · #9 08-11-2005, 03:30 PM

Hand 1

Others have mentioned this, but if I really want to see a showdown, I might check the turn and call the river. We're WA/WB here. Bet the river if checked to. The way you played, I think you have to fold to the turn C/R.

Hand 2
Call down from the turn. He may have a set, but more likely he has some 2 pair against which you have outs.

Hand 3
Part of me wants to 3-bet the turn since I have the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] but I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this. Will he raise something like KJs UTG? Will he not cap preflop with QQ? I think slowing down when you did is probably fine.

Tom

pokerstudAA · #10 08-11-2005, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3
Part of me wants to 3-bet the turn since I have the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] but I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this. Will he raise something like KJs UTG? Will he not cap preflop with QQ? I think slowing down when you did is probably fine.

Tom

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I think this depends on your table image and who had been playing back at you with sub-par hands. I am three betting that turn against alot of players.