Please help me with this QQ hand

SonOfWestwood · #1 07-13-2005, 12:11 PM

I seem to have major problems with hands like these. I'm not good enough to lay them down and I don't seem to know what to do throughout the hand to get a better idea of what I should do, and then I'm left with difficult river decisions. Plus, I've been waiting for a chance to get the CO's chips, and my anxiousness to do that may have also influenced the lame play of this hand.

Please comment on all streets and let me know what sorts of things you do and think about when playing a hand like this. I'm really looking for what sorts of things, if any, I can do and think about in the future to make playing, or folding, this hand easier in the later rounds instead of being faced with a difficult decision like I was.

CO's stats are 59%/22%/3.06/19%/48% 187 hands (probably 20-30 less at the time of this hand). His pre-flop raise means very little, as he raises things like 2 suited cards, 2 cards > 10, etc.

Hero: 44.95
CO: 77.21

All comments appreciated.

Party Poker NL25 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
6 folds, CO raises to 0.85 (looked like he had the bet pot clicked), 1 fold, Hero raises to 2.5, CO calls 1.65

Flop: (~5 pot) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets 5.00, CO raises to 10.00, Hero calls 5.00.

I was thinking he may have had JJ or TT here, as I would have expected him to re-raise w/ KK or AA pre-flop, and I can't see him raising w/ 2 overcards.

Turn: (~25 pot) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 10.00, Hero calls.

Should I have put out a blocking bet here of ~10, and shut down if he calls, and fold if he raises?

River: (~45 pot) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 25.00, Hero ?? (I've got ~22.50 left)

Now I'm stuck. Nice situation I put myself in...

Ghazban · #2 07-13-2005, 12:22 PM

If you think he will be this aggressive with JJ-99, your line is fine. The ace on the end is not a scare card because its unlikely he's taken his line with AK. You need an excellent read at these stakes to lay down queens on this board. If you think you're good on the turn, you might as well put it all in there as I don't think you can fold the river.

Laomedon · #3 07-13-2005, 12:27 PM

What types of hands has CO been minraising your flop continuation bets with previously? That flop is pretty ideal for you, there is no chance CO has AA or KK. The only hands that you're realistically behind are A6 or 22.

This hand seems read dependent, if you think you're best on this flop why not c/r all-in on the turn? Or you could, as you suggested lead the turn then fold if you felt certain he had the 6. You played this pretty weakly as if you knew you were drawing to two outs on that flop. At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength unless he's putting you on overs and has something like 88 or 99.

You're pretty much committed on the river, I would call this bet and expect to see 77-JJ a high percentage of the time.

Ghazban · #4 07-13-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...there is no chance CO has AA or KK. The only hands that you're realistically behind are A6 or 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everybody on the planet 3bets AA/KK preflop. A6 and 22 are less realistic than AA and KK as they are usually not EP raising hands.

Laomedon · #5 07-13-2005, 12:36 PM

I actually didn't notice that CO originally raised. My bad. That certainly changes things substantially. At the same time, you could still discount AA or KK, although to a lesser extent. Now it seems much more like an aggressively played 1010...

ajmargarine · #6 07-13-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength......

[/ QUOTE ]

If you purge this from your poker mind, your profits will increase. A miniraise is 2x your bet. Considerable strength is shown when you are raised 2.5x or 3x your bet. That is when you should be really concerned.

At these levels, the miniraise can be used:

--because the miniraiser doesn't believe you have a hand, and is using the minimal amount of money he can to try and push you off yours.
--because the miniraiser has TPGK and thinks that that is better than the junk that all the other fish at the table are playing, and forgets that you aren't a fish.
--because he is trying to get information from you. Are you making a continuation bet, or are you bluffing like all the other donkeys at the table? Miniraising is his default action to get info from you.
--because he is a fish
--because he is a donkey.
--because he is a maniac.

and last but not least:

--because he has a monster hand and is showing considerable strength.

I'm sure there are a few more that others can add; but, if miniraisers scare you and make you shut down and/or fold too much, that is -EV.

When good players miniraise, it's a cause for hesitation because they may be taking advantage of this miniraising epidemic at our levels, to get more money in the pot, when they have the best of it. I dislike miniraising, but do it from time to time when I want that automatic call that usually comes. When the bad to OK players miniraise, fear not.

Laomedon · #7 07-13-2005, 01:36 PM

In this particular instance I advocated getting Hero's money on the turn because I thought it was unlikely that the Villain was holding the few hands that the Hero was behind.

I certainly agree that a minraise by no means universally indicates strength, however, as you mentioned there are absolutely instances in which a minraise is used to induce a reraise. Does this mean that in every instance that one encounters a minraise it indicates strenght and that they should automatically fold, no.

At the same time, in situations such as this one, it could very well be a situation where Villain hit his trips and is hoping to induce a reraise from the Hero. It could also mean that the Villain has 1010 or even AK or something and is simply trying to move the Hero off the hand while expending the least amount of $$$.

In any case, what I meant to say originally is that it is obviously ENTIRELY read dependent, just as you cannot assume strength from a minraise every time, you also cannot assume weakness everytime, it is conditional on the particular situation.

NickPoker · #8 07-13-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength......

[/ QUOTE ]

If you purge this from your poker mind, your profits will increase. A miniraise is 2x your bet. Considerable strength is shown when you are raised 2.5x or 3x your bet. That is when you should be really concerned.

At these levels, the miniraise can be used:

--because the miniraiser doesn't believe you have a hand, and is using the minimal amount of money he can to try and push you off yours.
--because the miniraiser has TPGK and thinks that that is better than the junk that all the other fish at the table are playing, and forgets that you aren't a fish.
--because he is trying to get information from you. Are you making a continuation bet, or are you bluffing like all the other donkeys at the table? Miniraising is his default action to get info from you.
--because he is a fish
--because he is a donkey.
--because he is a maniac.

and last but not least:

--because he has a monster hand and is showing considerable strength.

I'm sure there are a few more that others can add; but, if miniraisers scare you and make you shut down and/or fold too much, that is -EV.

When good players miniraise, it's a cause for hesitation because they may be taking advantage of this miniraising epidemic at our levels, to get more money in the pot, when they have the best of it. I dislike miniraising, but do it from time to time when I want that automatic call that usually comes. When the bad to OK players miniraise, fear not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you to a point, but I think more and more people are miniraising monsters. I have found that in a lot of the games I have played recently my opponents are more scared of a miniraise than a bigger raise. I personally don't miniraise often, when I do it is one of 3 things: monster or I don't believe you or on a occassion a 3rd which is just to slow you down if I think I am best, but not real confident. To re-state though, as of late mini-raises I have ran into have meant monsters better than half the time.

ajmargarine · #9 07-13-2005, 02:05 PM

If you see the miniraise on the turn or river, yes, chances are greater you are up against a monster hand trying to get as much $ from you as he can.

But, the flop miniraise (I guess I didn't say that in my miniraise manifesto [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )....the miniraise on the flop, usually means all those things I said. 22 or 6x should call behind and then pop you on the turn or river. Hero's read was no AA or KK. So, he was probably just trying to scare Hero. (which seemed to work by the way [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] )

lange101 · #10 07-13-2005, 05:13 PM

Maybe 22 or 6x should have called the flop and repopped on the turn, but this guy reraises the flop, fires the turn strong and fires the river showing absolutely no fear of the A. I think that it is great that he reraised the flop. If I am put into this situation, the minraise usually screams fish to me, and fish usually check raise their monster hands on the flop. they don't usually call and raise the turn. I think that I am getting away from this hand pretty easily on the turn after calling the minraise on the flop. I hear people say that minraises are weak, but I completely disagree. The vast majority of the time that I have been minraised the hand is very strong. Especially at lower level nl. Maybe I'm playing too conservatively by not getting my money in the pot in this situation, but a minraise from a fish makes it easy for me to get away from the hand.

Edit: I also don't understand why people are not putting this guy on a 6. As the original poster already said, he will raise with anything. So if he will raise with anything he is either extremely skilled postflop, or a fish and I'm leaning towards fish. Putting him on TT, or 99 or anything like that is giving him too much credit. If he has AA or KK he is betting even more strongly. I just don't undersatnd why everyone thinks that the money should be in on the flop or turn. If he is as fishy as he sounds (which is pretty fishy raising with J6) then there are better spots than this to stack him off.