stars 215, two early laydowns

cocofrite · #1 10-24-2005, 11:03 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

CO (t2540)
Button (t2580)
SB (t1750)
BB (t2390)
UTG (t2470)
Hero (t2780)
MP1 (t2470)
MP2 (t2410)
MP3 (t3100)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to t60, 2 folds, MP3 calls t60, 2 folds, SB calls t50, 1 fold.

Flop: (t200) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t140, MP3 raises to t680, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1020

I've seen villain limping a lot preflop. I really don't like folding here but I think it's too early to take a stand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

MP2 (t2610)
MP3 (t2610)
CO (t1560)
Button (t980)
SB (t2410)
Hero (t3980)
UTG (t2440)
UTG+1 (t2340)
MP1 (t3560)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls t30, MP3 calls t30, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (t165) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t30, MP3 calls t30, CO calls t30, Button folds, Hero raises to t120, MP2 raises to t210, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t555

Guess, I'm getting punished for not raising preflop. I'm much more comfortable with this laydown.

Thoughts ?

cocofrite · #2 10-24-2005, 11:40 AM

Why do you people never answer my posts ?

zambonidrivr · #3 10-24-2005, 11:43 AM

Hand 1 - raise more preflop. nice laydown
Hand 2 - pretty easy laydown.

Roman · #4 10-24-2005, 11:45 AM

hand one shove. I dont lay this down to an unknown early, you will see 77-QQ too much to make this right imo.
Hand 2: I flat call and play the turn. Yes its a little weak, but no way I put him on 55 or 33 just cause he minreraised me just yet.

EverettKings · #5 10-24-2005, 12:00 PM

Hand 1: This is tough. His raise is just SO big that I have a hard time believing that he'd play a set that fast on a relatively safe board (vs a preflop raiser). More likely he has a 88-TT type hand or diamonds or 44. So, your options are call and raise. The problem with calling is that you don't know where you stand on the turn and you don't earn any more chips from worse hands. Raising must be all in, and that will price out draws and prevent bad cards from tricking you out of the hand. Maybe others have different reads but this doesn't scream "SET" to me.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: I flat call and play the turn. Yes its a little weak, but no way I put him on 55 or 33 just cause he minreraised me just yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Roman.

Everett

PS Give people more than 40 minutes to answer your posts. I for one just logged on now, I wasn't hating on you. If your hand is interesting (like this one) people will get around to it.

Jason Strasser · #6 10-24-2005, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: This is tough. His raise is just SO big that I have a hard time believing that he'd play a set that fast on a relatively safe board (vs a preflop raiser). More likely he has a 88-TT type hand or diamonds or 44. So, your options are call and raise. The problem with calling is that you don't know where you stand on the turn and you don't earn any more chips from worse hands. Raising must be all in, and that will price out draws and prevent bad cards from tricking you out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you forgot the biggest problem of all. This is kinda what I'm talking about in that post that no one really liked.

So let's say given this situation you cant get away from this hand ever. This is reasonable, given Roman's observations about 77-QQ, etc. So, once you decide you can't get away, you can ignore the fact that your opponent might have a set. I mean, the money is going in however any of you play it, so it's kinda irrelevant to consider if he has a set, if you can never get away from KK here given any further action/cards.

So, I think this helps make the situation very clear that you need to reraise here because the biggest fear of all is that when you are ahead, and if you decide to call, some turn cards may kill your action (thats what I think you missed Everett). I think that single fact outweighs any arguments for clat calling.

-Jason

EverettKings · #7 10-24-2005, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: This is tough. His raise is just SO big that I have a hard time believing that he'd play a set that fast on a relatively safe board (vs a preflop raiser). More likely he has a 88-TT type hand or diamonds or 44. So, your options are call and raise. The problem with calling is that you don't know where you stand on the turn and you don't earn any more chips from worse hands. Raising must be all in, and that will price out draws and prevent bad cards from tricking you out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you forgot the biggest problem of all. This is kinda what I'm talking about in that post that no one really liked.

So let's say given this situation you cant get away from this hand ever. This is reasonable, given Roman's observations about 77-QQ, etc. So, once you decide you can't get away, you can ignore the fact that your opponent might have a set. I mean, the money is going in however any of you play it, so it's kinda irrelevant to consider if he has a set, if you can never get away from KK here given any further action/cards.

So, I think this helps make the situation very clear that you need to reraise here because the biggest fear of all is that when you are ahead, and if you decide to call, some turn cards may kill your action (thats what I think you missed Everett). I think that single fact outweighs any arguments for clat calling.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we're saying the same thing.

I basically agreed that a set is getting paid (since I can't give him credit for it), so I ignored the set without actually realizing that I was ignoring it. Also, mid pairs I think will fold to a reraise all in here or shut down on the turn if you call, so regardless you're getting the same money from them. So I kinda ignored them too. I don't actually think that there's many hands whose action you can get killed on the turn here, so that's not really a concern.

The main issue here is drawing hands, which are pretty numerous. The only move then is a push.

Everett

cocofrite · #8 10-24-2005, 12:08 PM

Thanks guys, interesting replies.

In hand one, I saw later that villain was very very loose.
He might have 44, even 56.

Hand 2, min bet / three-bet really looks like a trap to me.
Surprised I don't get told off for not raising pf !

Jason Strasser · #9 10-24-2005, 12:13 PM

Your fold to the minraise seems terrible in hand 2. At the minimum I probably call this and a turn bet versus the type of donkey in this hand who is fully capable of overplaying any queen like this.

-Jason

Hickboy · #10 10-24-2005, 12:25 PM

Hand 1: I would never fold here. This is either a semi-bluff, or the villain trying to protect his hand IMO. I would go all in and try to shut him out of the pot. Be happy if he folds.

Hand 2: Eww. Really tough spot. I would still call the flop min raise and lead out on the turn for 1/2 the pot. If you get raised again here, then you are in another dillema, but it will make folding AQ much easier.