vulnerable hand: wait for the turn?

surfdoc · #1 10-03-2005, 01:30 PM

I game select goot. utg is a huge donk on a good run. He is 62/10/1. BB is also very bad at 43/3/1.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises

me454555 · #2 10-03-2005, 03:39 PM

Looks good. You can't protect your hand on the flop so why not wait for the turn

Derek in NYC · #3 10-03-2005, 04:07 PM

Raise the flop for value. There is no guarantee you will get the opportunity to raise on 4th street.

EDIT: It occured to me that your understanding of the "wait until 4th street to raise a vulnerable hand" concept is somewhat confused. The rule applies particularly in large pots with people to act behind you. It is not, strictly speaking, just a value raise (although the way you implemented it, it was). It is a value/protection raise.

The problem with "waiting until 4th street to raise for value only"--without regard to the notion of protecting your hand--is that you have no guarantee that villain will bet into you again and give you the opportunity to raise. Thus, in a situation where you can't "protect" your hand anyhow, all you do by waiting is give up value you could have had by raising on the flop.

StellarWind · #4 10-03-2005, 04:43 PM

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Raise the flop for value. There is no guarantee you will get the opportunity to raise on 4th street.

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Hero needs to read BB and make a decision. If BB is going to autobet until he meets opposition then OP played it just right. If BB is going to check a lot of hands then Hero is leaving money on the table by not raising.

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It occured to me that your understanding of the "wait until 4th street to raise a vulnerable hand" concept is somewhat confused.

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There are several different ideas behind "waiting-for-the-turn" and this hand illustrates one of them: getting paid. Other hands are more oriented toward protection or wanting to see the turn card before committing.

Two more considerations, one for raising and one for calling:

1. This may be your last chance to get paid by UTG. The more multiway the pot is the more you should be inclined to immediately raise and soak the one-and-done weak draws. [Remember we are discussing the getting-paid type of wait-for-the-turn play.]

2. Calling the flop from the button provides better control. It's much better to see that the turn is already two bets before you act then to walk into a checkraise.

PokerBob · #5 10-03-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I game select goot. utg is a huge donk on a good run. He is 62/10/1. BB is also very bad at 43/3/1.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises

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 given your position, you cannot protect your hand on any street, so why not pop the flop when you likely are ahead? also, if a paint card falls, it may freeze up the initial bettor.

GetThere1Time · #6 10-03-2005, 04:14 PM

I like it if he's fairly aggressive. Are these guys gonna freeze up if a broadway hits the turn? If so I probably just raise the flop to guarantee the money gets in there.

Schneids · #7 10-03-2005, 04:26 PM

Pop the flop he might three bet, when you just call if he's thinking at all he thinks you probably have overcards, so, he may check a "scary" turn and you lose that value.

Justin A · #8 10-03-2005, 05:25 PM

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Pop the flop he might three bet, when you just call if he's thinking at all he thinks you probably have overcards, so, he may check a "scary" turn and you lose that value.

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I agree with this. There's a place for waiting until the turn to raise for value but it's usually in bigger pots with more opponents, when your flop edge is likely not very strong. In this case, your flop edge is likely very very strong and you're missing bets by not raising.

surfdoc · #9 10-03-2005, 06:42 PM

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Pop the flop he might three bet, when you just call if he's thinking at all he thinks you probably have overcards, so, he may check a "scary" turn and you lose that value.

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I agree with this. There's a place for waiting until the turn to raise for value but it's usually in bigger pots with more opponents, when your flop edge is likely not very strong. In this case, your flop edge is likely very very strong and you're missing bets by not raising.

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This hand is very close to a hand from SSHE (page 187) with the exception that the pot is not yet very large. I think this is a very close decision and thats is why I posted it. My equity on the turn changes so much that I really wanted to get my raise in then. This is as much a ploy to maximize value as raising the flop. Part of the decision is knowing just how bad these guys are.

I can understand those that say that an overcard will scare them but that is okay because it will scare me too. The gamble is that when another baby card comes off I will get two double bets out of both the donks. For those of you saying he won't bet the turn clearly you don't play in this game often. This guy fires at a blank turn 100% of the time because he is certain I have overs. (that is just how they think)

This reminds me of the movie Colors with sean penn and robert duvall. The exact details are hard to remember but duvall is the old guy and he tells the yound guy (penn), "there are two bulls sitting on the top of a hill. The young one says let run down into the valley and fucck one of those cows. The old one says lets walk down there and fuuck them all!"

StellarWind · #10 10-04-2005, 03:52 AM

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This hand is very close to a hand from SSHE (page 187) with the exception that the pot is not yet very large. I think this is a very close decision and thats is why I posted it. My equity on the turn changes so much that I really wanted to get my raise in then.

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This argument does not apply to this hand.

Your hand is so good that you probably need to raise any turn card even though you may be nervous. Once you realize that it becomes obvious that this hand is not like p. 187. It's not just a smaller pot size. It's fewer opponents behaving in a much less scary fashion. Certainly the turn card may change your pot equity but that's irrelevant because you cannot allow that information to stop you from raising.

The correct play depends on how your opponents are likely to play the turn. Based on the information you originally provided I would raise the flop. At the table I would be influenced by my feel for the opponents. If I felt that my "obvious overcards" would be ruthlessly attacked then I would go for the trap call.

I sense that you had a feeling like this but it didn't really come through in the hand post.