Thoughts on turn

Backstabr · #1 05-09-2005, 05:33 AM

Taking a first stab at 2/4. Just sat down.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

3-bet figuring I was ahead of UTG+1 and to knock out BB. When it's capped, I'm pretty sure I'm behind. With no reads, should I let this go right then?

River: (15.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

If calling his cap means I read him for a draw, is the Js another reason to fold?

New001 · #2 05-09-2005, 05:45 AM

I like 3-betting his check/raise on the turn because a hand like T9 is no good and, as you said, you could get it heads up. I definitely call his cap, and I'll probably call a river bet against an unknown, too. You'd be surprised how often you'll win because of the paired board, particularly bad players don't see their two pair is corrupted.

Either way, you'll see what he went nuts on the turn with when you call. I think I play the whole hand the same.

Nick Royale · #3 05-09-2005, 06:18 AM

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I definitely call his cap, and I'll probably call a river bet against an unknown, too.

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If you call the turn you MUST call the river, since hadn't odds to draw.

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I like 3-betting his check/raise on the turn because a hand like T9 is no good

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This ain't a good reason to 3-bet.

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You'd be surprised how often you'll win because of the paired board, particularly bad players don't see their two pair is corrupted.

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I don't agree. The only hand that got counterfeited is T9 and it takes a really bad player to check/raise that hand.

That being said, I don't know what to do on the turn. I find these situations when I feel like being behind but still need to raise fold a 3rd player hard. I do believe this hand is played correct.

EDIT: maybe I'm overestimating the times the check/raise is by a hand like AT? Maybe calling the turn is better? And to get an overcall on the turn isn't that bad since the only hands we fear is hands like KT/A9. Hands like JT don't have the odds to call even 1 bet. I would like some more opinions on this turn...

New001 · #4 05-09-2005, 06:23 AM

Aside from T9, the only hands that he doesn't beat are TT and 99 or a limped 2, and I suppose KK and AA. If he's on TT or 99, you have 4 outs to beat them. He almost has odds to draw to that calling the turn cap. If he limped a 2, he gets a new buddy.

Edit: Bleh, teaches me to try to think while this tired.

Nick Royale · #5 05-09-2005, 06:27 AM

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Aside from T9, the only hands that he doesn't beat are TT and 99 or a limped 2, and I suppose KK and AA. If he's on TT or 99, you have 4 outs to beat them. He almost has odds to draw to that calling the turn cap. If he limped a 2, he gets a new buddy.

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But check/raising in a protected pot is a sign of strength. And add 22 to the hands that beats us. And don't count the 2's as outs.

New001 · #6 05-09-2005, 06:30 AM

I think I'm ahead more often than not here.

Edit: Fixed stupidity

Piiop · #7 05-09-2005, 06:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, I don't know what to do on the turn. I find these situations when I feel like being behind but still need to raise fold a 3rd player hard. I do believe this hand is played correct.

EDIT: maybe I'm overestimating the times the check/raise is by a hand like AT? Maybe calling the turn is better? And to get an overcall on the turn isn't that bad since the only hands we fear is hands like KT/A9. Hands like JT don't have the odds to call even 1 bet. I would like some more opinions on this turn...

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I'm going back and forth on this myself. I think some players will check-raise the turn with a T or something since they think they're safe cuz no A or K is out there. Forcing the BB to call 2 cold is nice, but he probably only has 3 outs cuz he's not folding a flush draw and he still has good odds anyway. He may have an OESD, but with KJ or J8, hitting that Q is money for Hero. The problem with 3-betting is that, if villain caps we're put in a tough spot. I wouldn't want to fold this against an unknown, but how often are we ahead here - really once he caps AND the spade hits the river we shouldn't be calling. So, since I don't want to fold this, I think I'm calling down starting on the turn.

Nick Royale · #8 05-09-2005, 06:46 AM

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Forcing the BB to call 2 cold is nice, but he probably only has 3 outs

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You ment 2?

EDIT: sorry I'm slow, you're taklking about being up against 1 over, he have only 2 if he holds a T or 9 without a A or K kicker. So most often he'll have 2-3 outs.

Piiop · #9 05-09-2005, 06:47 AM

Huh?

Piiop · #10 05-09-2005, 07:00 AM

Yeah, that's what I meant - but actually I'm not so sure.

2 outs - T kicker lower than K, 9 kicker lower than K, pocket pair
3 outs - AJ, KJ, KQ, AQ
4 outs - J8, T9
5 outs - AT, KT, A9, K9
6 outs - AK

then theres flush draw, and OESD, but he's not folding those and will be getting good odds no matter what.

When it gets back to the BB on the turn, if the Hero doesn't 3-bet, he'll be getting 11:1 (I think, I didn't recheck), which is enough to call with 4 or more outs, so 3-betting is actually kind of good here. I still don't want to fold this against unknowns, that 2 isn't that scary.