20-40...Would You Ever Check This River?

Jeffage · #1 03-09-2004, 07:30 PM

20-40 at the Taj. I have J10o in the cutoff. 3 players limp, I limp and the button raises. The SB folds, BB calls. All others call. 6 players for 2 bets each. Flop comes 8-9-3, no suits. Check to me, I check (I don't want to bet and get raised, shutting others out). Surprisingly the button also checks. The turn is an offsuit queen to give me the straight. Check to me, I bet. The button calls. Now the BB checkraises. Folded back to me and I make it 120. The button seems confused (not an act) and coldcalls the 80. The BB just calls. The river is another 8 to pair the board. BB now checks. I have the button to act behind me and, with the BB not capping the turn...it's tough to put him on the straight. More likely a set. Of course he could have some other BS. But my question is...would u ever check in this spot? Or is this a clear situation where your hand is too good to check?

Thanks,
Jeff

AJo Go All In · #2 03-09-2004, 07:41 PM

i would fold preflop.
i would bet the flop.
turn is fine obviously (although i suspect you didn't make it 90)
i would bet the river and call a raise.

Diplomat · #3 03-10-2004, 02:31 AM

The call pre-flop is fine.

-Diplomat

DcifrThs · #4 03-10-2004, 10:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The call pre-flop is fine.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

I trust your opinion here, Diplomat. i've read many of your posts and those included in the older archives and do believe you when you say this preflop call is ok. HPFAP also says in this late a position these calls are ok. but how much am i giving up by passing them? i honestly do not remember the last time i played jto. i think it was in a 2/4, 3/6, or 5/10 game on the button maybe...but qj is like my "cutoff" and i really don't play jto, t9o, 98o, 87o and the like...maybe i can add jto in position in the situation described but if i don't have control of a game i fear this hand will just get me introuble.

please advise on this aspect of play and if you think i'm really hurting myself by not playing these hands. as it stands right now i will continue to toss them but now i will play the hand out in my head as if i played it and see what i would have done in different situations that invariably arise with these trouble spots.

maybe i just doubt my game a bit in this spot and that could be a leak. well at least now i'll go review this aspect of the game and think about it so any help you can provide will be appreciated.

thanks
-Barron

Diplomat · #5 03-10-2004, 11:13 AM

Well, you really are not giving up too much by folding this hand -- you almost never are by playing a bit too tight pre-flop. But I disagreed with AJo because he seemed to suggest that the pre-flop call is always bad, which it's not.

-Diplomat

AJo Go All In · #6 03-10-2004, 11:17 AM

not to be nitpicky, but i don't think i suggested that at all. i simply suggested (stated) that i would fold preflop.

glen · #7 03-09-2004, 07:44 PM

"I have the button to act behind me and, with the BB not capping the turn...it's tough to put him on the straight. More likely a set."

The bb checked the flop and the turn into five players and you want to give him a set. You are nice. The button checked the flop and then just called your intial turn bet. All signs point to an easy river bet.

Jeffage · #8 03-09-2004, 07:52 PM

What does the BB have when he calls my turn 3-bet? Just a Queen? I kind of doubt it with the other guy calling. The guy may be a bit loose but I felt like he played a good hand strangely. If he would only checkraise the turn with two pair or a set, I'm in big trouble save for Q9. I just doubt he'd call a 3-bet with a queen only if he decided to check a queen twice which is also bizarre. And if he has the same str8, why not cap it? I'm not doubting you. In fact, I bet it...pretty much automatically. I'm just trying to analyze in hindsight if it's correct in this particular spot.

Jeff

Manzanita · #9 03-09-2004, 08:15 PM

Jeff,

My guess is that the BB has AQ. With this hand a check-raise on the turn isn't a bad play. Given the size of the pot I can see him calling your 3-bet with this hand. And if the BB is really loose-aggressive, he may even be playing KQ, QJ, or even QT.

-- Manzanita

glen · #10 03-09-2004, 08:31 PM

Here's how I see it. I will admit that a hole in my game is when I read hands I often ask myself, "Would I have possibly played (whatever range of hands I put my opponent) on that way?" and then if there is no way I would, I will eliminate that possibility. So, sometimes I compromise logic in favor of, well, a different kind of logic, which is very narrow (uh oh, I am starting to sound like Elysium). Usually, when I give people too much action as a result of this, they usually left a ton of money on the table earlier in the hand, and then I don't sweat it that much. If he has you beat, he misplayed his hand and got fancy somewhere, so reward him with an extra bet and feel good about the theoretical money you saved.

Jeff, I am taking you off JTo after three limpers. Please read hpfap and top 4 times fast, count to ten, and then forget all about JTo after 3 limpers. . .