Small pocket pair blind defense - how is my line?

gh9801 · #1 11-20-2005, 11:29 PM

Villain is TAG, Steal % is 40+

Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em (8 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
6 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.00 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.00 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.00 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.00 BB.

Nick Royale · #2 11-22-2005, 07:53 AM

I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

hobbsmann · #3 11-22-2005, 09:03 AM

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I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

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what nick said.

winky51 · #4 11-22-2005, 11:04 AM

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I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

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what nick said.

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ditto

Oh and the most important thing that they all forgot to mention... flop a set.

gh9801 · #5 11-22-2005, 05:42 PM

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I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

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Right, this is my default line too. Charge overs, try to take down the pot uncontested, define opponent's hand, etc. I'm just curious how good a line like this is against an aggressive TAG. Like in a WA/WB situation I'm keeping the hands undefined while inducing worse hands to bluff and losing the minimum to a better hand (while going to showdown as cheaply as possible)

Sometimes I feel I have to not raise the flop to avoid getting threebet on the flop with air and outplayed by ace high. I feel like my pair is very likely good, but sometimes I just want to trade some value for perhaps a cheaper showdown. Good? bad? How often should I be mixing it up, if ever?

And what about that river?

Nick C · #6 11-22-2005, 06:55 PM

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Sometimes I feel I have to not raise the flop to avoid getting threebet on the flop with air and outplayed by ace high. I feel like my pair is very likely good, but sometimes I just want to trade some value for perhaps a cheaper showdown. Good? bad? How often should I be mixing it up, if ever?

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I think the line you took is all right.

If you're ahead on the turn, Villain will usually have 12 or more outs, and I think raising there, hoping to get J6o to make an incorrect fold, has its merits. But the pot is small, and I don't think it's crucial to put up a big fight.

On the flop, if you're ahead, just calling and encouraging Villain to fire again on the turn with a 6-outer does have its advantages, in this small pot.

Anyway, I don't think you should do the same thing every time, but the line you took seems to me like one that's worth including in your repertoire.

Nick Royale · #7 11-22-2005, 07:22 PM

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Sometimes I feel I have to not raise the flop to avoid getting threebet on the flop with air and outplayed by ace high. I feel like my pair is very likely good, but sometimes I just want to trade some value for perhaps a cheaper showdown. Good? bad? How often should I be mixing it up, if ever?

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I think the line you took is all right.

If you're ahead on the turn, Villain will usually have 12 or more outs, and I think raising there, hoping to get J6o to make an incorrect fold, has its merits. But the pot is small, and I don't think it's crucial to put up a big fight.

On the flop, if you're ahead, just calling and encouraging Villain to fire again on the turn with a 6-outer does have its advantages, in this small pot.

Anyway, I don't think you should do the same thing every time, but the line you took seems to me like one that's worth including in your repertoire.

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I agree and I see your points, but I think we need a plan when we make this flop call since we can expect him to fire on the turn very often.

I don't like calling on the flop with the intention of calling down or folding to a turn bet. "I don't think it's crucial to put up a big fight", I agree but if we're planning to play this hand on the flop (which we obviously do since we called preflop) we need to planning to go to war somewhere in the hand, either on the flop or turn. I think a turnraise is superior to anything else if we call the flop. We're charging a draw if ahead, fold very few outs if 3-betted, still have a good chance of being ahead, have decent odds of folding a better hand and pay the same as calling down.

So if we're planning to go to a sd we need to raise somewhere. And I need to have a good read to lay this hand down to a bet anywhere without having shown any aggression myself.

We decided to play this hand by calling preflop (and no I'm not questioning the preflop call). We knew the pot would be small so an argument like "But the pot is small, and I don't think it's crucial to put up a big fight" doesn't fit.

Nick C · #8 11-22-2005, 07:37 PM

FWIW, I wasn't recommending a turn fold at all. The board would have to be a lot scarier for me to want to fold my pocket 2's to what could easily just be another auto-bet.

I think I prefer your turn raise to a call, though.

There are a couple of exceptions. The one you've mentioned already is that we don't want to be taking a raise-fold line against a blind-battle spewer. Another potential exception, I think, occurs when we're facing someone who will fire the whole way with whatever he raised with preflop. Against that player, I think simply calling down has its merits.

Unfortunately, in practice, my reads aren't usually precise enough for me to know exactly how my opponent handles blind battles, so some guesswork is involved there.

Nick C · #9 11-22-2005, 07:26 PM

I just read what Nick Royale wrote and have decided I like the flop call better than the turn call.

On the turn, I prefer the free-showdown raise he talked about (unless facing a maniac or a hyper-aggro blind-vs.-blind player).

I will say this, though: There are some players who will fire on all three postflop streets with air after raising preflop, and against those players I think calling down the whole way with pocket 2's is an acceptable line.

Nick Royale · #10 11-22-2005, 07:39 PM

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I just read what Nick Royale wrote and have decided I like the flop call better than the turn call.

On the turn, I prefer the free-showdown raise he talked about (unless facing a maniac or a hyper-aggro blind-vs.-blind player).

I will say this, though: There are some players who will fire on all three postflop streets with air after raising preflop, and against those players I think calling down the whole way with pocket 2's is an acceptable line.

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Yeah, I think we're on the same page here. When thinking about it i might start use this line as a standard line from now on, of course mixing it up pretty good, but I think call flop/raise turn is best against many players (especially players capable of folding low pairs).