Can the North secede from the Union?

[bort411]

I always wondered about this. Looking at a map of the last 2 presedential electoral results and comparing it to a map of the Confederacy and Union cerca 1864 reveals similiar results. Hypothetically speaking, after a 2008 presedential loss in which the former Union states vote similarly, could the heads of each of these states get together and decide to withdraw from the US?

I suppose an important question would be what to do with Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, California, the Pacific Northwest, and Hawaii. For arguements sake, let's say that the goal would be to form a unified Southern border along Illinois and Indiana stretching to Maryland, with Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio, and Minnesota included. Hawaii, the PN, and Calfornia would not be immediately involved.

As I understand it, this action from Northern States would not be legal, but wouldn't they be violating a domestic statute rather than an international treaty? Hypothetically, couldn't each resident of these states emigrate from the US, if they really were concerned with the Constitution? What would happen if a state containing zero American citizens laid claim to that area?

[DVaut1]

We need more "Bort" license plates in the gift shop. I repeat, we are sold out of "Bort" license plates.

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More seriously, I've heard Lawrence O'Donnell make arguments (on the McLaughlin Group is where I think I heard him say it) somewhat similar to this; not necessarily the North seceding from the rest of the country, but from wealthier 'blue' states becoming tired of 'red' state welfare and demanding (at the very least) a complete reorganization of the federal system.

If you Google 'Lawrence O'Donnell + red state welfare' or something along those lines, you'll find some links relating to his idea, I'm sure - as I seem to remember it causing a small raucus on right-wing message boards/blogs and the like. When I heard his explanation, I didn't find it very reasonable - but I never studied his idea in depth, and can't remember the details now. Given the nature of pundit yaking, I doubt he thought about it seriously either; but I don't think you're alone for 'wondering' this.

For those who don't know, O'Donnell is a former Democratic Hill staffer, author, pundit, writer for the West Wing, etc.

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ot necessarily the North seceding from the rest of the country, but from wealthier 'blue' states becoming tired of 'red' state welfare and demanding (at the very least) a complete reorganization of the federal system.

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The irony of Democrats complaining about the blue states "supporting" the poorer red states is priceless. Hypocrisy knowns no bounds for some people.

[DVaut1]

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The irony of Democrats complaining about the blue states "supporting" the poorer red states is priceless. Hypocrisy knowns no bounds for some people.

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Somewhat ironically, I think (altough better economists than I can come refute me) that, if we assume red states are actually just clientele-welfare states, suckling at the breast of the higher-tax paying blue states, we could use the implications of such an assumption to make an argument for a flax tax model that appeals to blue state voters. So while conservatives may bristle at the notion that some red states are tantamount to leeches, they could possibly use such an argument as a spring-board to justify flat tax policies --> and more importantly, find political backing for such models in blue-state areas.

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The irony of Democrats complaining about the blue states "supporting" the poorer red states is priceless. Hypocrisy knowns no bounds for some people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhat ironically, I think (altough better economists than I can come refute me) that, if we assume red states are actually just clientele-welfare states, suckling at the breast of the higher-tax paying blue states, we could use the implications of such an assumption to make an argument for a flax tax model that appeals to blue state voters. So while conservatives may bristle at the notion that some red states are tantamount to leeches, they could possibly use such an argument as a spring-board to justify flat tax policies --> and more importantly, find political backing for such models in blue-state areas.

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Where does your food come from? Oh. You don't say.

[SheetWise]

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Where does your food come from? Oh. You don't say.


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We can't get them on that one -- CA feeds the world.
Where does their oil come from?
Where does their electricity come from?

[DVaut1]

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Where does your food come from? Oh. You don't say.

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I didn't say 'where my food comes from' because it wasn't at all relevant to my point. I didn't mention where babies come from, either. Nor did I mention where my car comes from, or a whole host of other things that weren't particularly pertinent.

[Abednego]

Don't look now but industry is leaving Michigan for sun belt locations. People are moving to FL at the rate of 800 a day. The electoral map is rapidly changing. Used to be carry NY and CA and you were practically in. I am from MI and go there on business frequently ...... are you blind to the blight that surrounds you (assuming you are in Ann Arbor), Meanwhile the south continues to grow in prosperity and population. Newest auto plants as an example are in KY, TN, AL, and SC etc.

[DVaut1]

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Don't look now but industry is leaving Michigan for sun belt locations. People are moving to FL at the rate of 800 a day. The electoral map is rapidly changing. Used to be carry NY and CA and you were practically in. I am from MI and go there on business frequently ...... are you blind to the blight that surrounds you (assuming you are in Ann Arbor), Meanwhile the south continues to grow in prosperity and population. Newest auto plants as an example are in KY, TN, AL, and SC etc.

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Okay. Sounds interesting.

Yes, I know people are moving the sunbelt, and taking industries with them.

Yes, I know the auto industry (or at the very least, auto labor) is stuggling to find stability here in Michigan.

Yes, I know the electoral map is changing.

While interesting, it's not at all relevant to anything I said. Nowhere did I say the North should secede; in fact, I said it sounded unreasonable. In fact, I went even farther than that, saying that Lawrence O'Donnell's suggestion of even a mere reorganization of the federal government was unresonable.

Please read all the posts in the thread.

[Benman]

I'm from Texas, about as red of a state as they come. We take in far more federal highway dollars and medicaid dollars than we, as citizens, contribute in federal taxes. It's fairly clear cut that southern states, most of which are red, are net gainers in the federal tax/spend structure.