HEPFAP, Page 22 First 2 Cards, EP

BeerMoney · #1 08-01-2005, 11:30 AM

"If no one has yet called, almost always raise with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and AQ. Part of the reason to raise with these hands is that they lose value as the pot gets more multiway(especially if your opponents see the flop for one bet rather than 2.) "

So, do aces lose value as more people enter the pot?

#2 08-01-2005, 12:22 PM

Yes, because the more people there are the bigger the chance that the aces will be busted by a drawing hand. High pairs work well with few people, meaning you need to narrow the field down to just a few.

blackaces13 · #3 08-01-2005, 01:55 PM

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Yes, because the more people there are the bigger the chance that the aces will be busted by a drawing hand. High pairs work well with few people, meaning you need to narrow the field down to just a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is wrong. You make more money when more people call even though your winrate goes down a bit. The extra money more than compensates for the reduced winrate. Its not about pots its about money, yada yada yada. I've been through this discussion a lot of times on these boards, sorry.

#4 08-01-2005, 02:00 PM

With that logic it may just even out. But I still think 2 opponents is better than 5.

blackaces13 · #5 08-01-2005, 02:42 PM

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With that logic it may just even out. But I still think 2 opponents is better than 5.

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Nah, it doesn't even out. 5 callers of a raise with AA is a lot better than 2 in limit poker. Its not close.

Cooker · #6 08-01-2005, 03:05 PM

This is not true. All preflop situations are plus EV with aces, but the maximum plus EV result is every player in for a cap (so with 10 people at the table you earn the most money on average when every player stays in for a cap). This is because the pot grows much faster than your winrate goes down with Aces. A quote from page 126 of Getting Started in Hold'em by Ed Miller regarding playing AA, "Getting it all-in against all 9 players is actually your best result, but you will never be that lucky."

For this reason, if I had AA in middle position with 3 callers ahead and if the button was a maniac that raised every pot, I would limp reraise hoping to trap even more players in. With aces, the more the merrier as long as you aren't sacrificing raises. Still, you are better off with 2 opponents for a raise than with 5 opponents for a limp.

Rudbaeck · #7 08-01-2005, 03:09 PM

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With that logic it may just even out. But I still think 2 opponents is better than 5.

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No it doesn't. 8 callers is the optimum. So if you raise UTG you want the big blind to fold and everyone else to call for max EV. If the bb calls it's a teensy bit worse. Up to 8 callers it just gets better.

Off course you'll only win a third of those family pots, but the pots won are humongous.

nomdeplume · #8 08-05-2005, 05:07 AM

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No it doesn't. 8 callers is the optimum. So if you raise UTG you want the big blind to fold and everyone else to call for max EV. If the bb calls it's a teensy bit worse.

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Why is it a bit worse if the BB calls? I believe you, I just can't see why. Thanks

BeerMoney · #9 08-01-2005, 02:12 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Yes, because the more people there are the bigger the chance that the aces will be busted by a drawing hand. High pairs work well with few people, meaning you need to narrow the field down to just a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is wrong. You make more money when more people call even though your winrate goes down a bit. The extra money more than compensates for the reduced winrate. Its not about pots its about money, yada yada yada. I've been through this discussion a lot of times on these boards, sorry.

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OK, then are S&M wrong? Or am I misinterpreting it?

blackaces13 · #10 08-01-2005, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, because the more people there are the bigger the chance that the aces will be busted by a drawing hand. High pairs work well with few people, meaning you need to narrow the field down to just a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is wrong. You make more money when more people call even though your winrate goes down a bit. The extra money more than compensates for the reduced winrate. Its not about pots its about money, yada yada yada. I've been through this discussion a lot of times on these boards, sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, then are S&M wrong? Or am I misinterpreting it?

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I'd say they worded it wrong if they were only talking about AA, and if they didn't add that part in parenthesis. But they also mention AK/AQ and QQ. I think the important thing is that letting in a lot of people for 1 bet instead of 2 is what is really bad for those hands.

Obviously if you asked Sklansky or Mason if they'd rather have 1 caller or 4 callers when they raise AA UTG they'd both rather 4 and 5 would be better still. Here I think they're trying to warn of the dangers of letting weaker holdings in for 1 bet. This danger is even worse for hands like AQ, KK, and QQ then it is for rockets and they're referring to those hands as well.