One limper, TT on the button with 18BBs...

[45suited]

How many of you like pushing this with TT from the button after one limper when I have almost 18BB? I really like doing this alot because:

1) I'd have to risk 1/4 of my stack to make a normal raise
2) I really don't want to see a flop
3) I get called SO OFTEN by small PPs or one overcard
because it looks like such a steal

Is this standard for most of you guys? Maybe you won't get paid off at the higher levels, but then again, maybe you will because it looks so suspicious. I really don't see any line better than pushing here, does anybody else?

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 4: marzz222 ( $1490 )
Seat 9: maddawg1018 ( $1480 )
Seat 10: asidz ( $880 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $880 )
Seat 8: vman4051964 ( $773 )
Seat 3: garudamojo ( $902 )
Seat 7: PharmD07 ( $1595 )

Trny:14300646 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Tc Ts ]
maddawg1018 folds.
asidz folds.
garudamojo calls [50].
marzz222 folds.
HERO is all-In [880]

[RaiNz]

[ QUOTE ]
3) I get called SO OFTEN by small PPs or one overcard because it looks like such a steal


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good thing. You are atleast a 2:1 favorite vs the 1 overcard, and 4:1 vs the dominated underpair. Pushing with this many BB is really bad. The only hands that call you are going to be the ones that beat you with the exception of maybe AK. That means when you get called you are either severely dominated, or slightly better than a coinflip.

[Maulik]

Too much risk for very little reward of t125 chips. Just limp and bet most flops. You're also misunderstanding how deep 18bb is considering the new lvl 75/150. You've got 10 extra hands to find a good spot.

[RaiNz]

[ QUOTE ]
Too much risk for very little reward of t125 chips. Just limp and bet most flops. You're also misunderstanding how deep 18bb is considering the new lvl 75/150. You've got 10 extra hands to find a good spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you suggest we limp instead of making a standard raise here?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got 10 extra hands to find a good spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT on the button *is* a good spot.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
3) I get called SO OFTEN by small PPs or one overcard because it looks like such a steal

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thing. You are atleast a 2:1 favorite vs the 1 overcard, and 4:1 vs the dominated underpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's great thing. That's the whole point of pushing here.

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing with this many BB is really bad. The only hands that call you are going to be the ones that beat you with the exception of maybe AK. That means when you get called you are either severely dominated, or slightly better than a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wrong for the 22s and below. You will be called by one overcard hands and lower PPs here so often it's unbelievable. And as far as overpairs, if someone has JJ+, I'm either losing my whole stack or getting severely crippled with TT here anyway.

The whole point of my post was this: At the lower levels, rather than trying FPS plays (which in rare cases do have merit) such as the PVS, it is better to make a play like this, which I consider a "Fake PVS"... It looks so much like a steal, and at the lower levels the guys with A4s or 55 who don't understand the gap concept or are just plain curious, cannot help but force themselves to call you.

Again, my stack size is such that if I happen to run into JJ+, I'm pretty screwed no matter how I play it.

Playing TT this way in this situation (where a normal 3BB + 1 limper raise is ~25% of my stack) is incredibly +EV. Give it a shot at the 22s and below and you'll be amazed how often you double up.

I would say that I get called here 70% of the time, and of those times, the vast majority of the time, my hand is way ahead pre-flop.

Think about it: the common reasoning (correctly) says not to try stuff like the PVS very often at the lower levels because the fish ARE MORE LIKELY TO CALL YOU. That's what makes this play so great.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that I get called here 70% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

no way.


how big a stack would you need before you didn't push?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
how big a stack would you need before you didn't push?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm right around the edge in the hand that I posted. I think that people aren't really thinking the hand through.

Yes, I would have position after the flop. But the normal raise of 200 takes me down to 685. There's lots of flops that I have to play very carefully. Even if I push and everyone folds, I've added t125 to my stack (+14%).

But consider the hand in question. I got called by a better hand than I usually do, 88. The flop came with two broadways. Am I doubling up after a normal raise and that flop? Probably not. I might even get bluffed off the best hand. Put yourself in the villain's position when I push pre-flop. This hand was not a great example because he had a real hand.

But so often, guys at the 11s and 22s want to make great reads or they're just curious. I seriously get called by 44, Ace-rag, suited aces all the time here. And again, the argument that I might run into an overpair is just silly - I'm screwed any way that I play this hand if that's the case.

I'm really surprised that nobody has said that they like this. How can people love the PVS and not love a value push that appears to be a PVS? Guys WILL call so often here with hands that you dominate that it is unbelievable.

I should also add that the argument that "AK might call me" is one that I also don't get. I'll take TT vs AK any day of the week, especially in this spot of the game where I need to start accumulating chips.

[45suited]

That's fine if nobody likes this, I'm just saying for any player struggling at this level, make value plays like this, not FPS plays with weak hands.

The fish will call more often than you think. And it's never a bad thing to have all your money in with the best hand pre-flop. Trust me on this one...

[RaiNz]

I should also add that the argument that "AK might call me" is one that I also don't get. I'll take TT vs AK any day of the week, especially in this spot of the game where I need to start accumulating chips.

You don't get it because you probably failed to read the last line. I said if called you were probably dominated by a higher PP, or slightly better than a coinflip. Ofcourse we should not be afraid of AK here. Of the hands that call you AK is the only one that you are ahead of.

Sure a complete donk might call you with whatever weak hand because it's his favorite hand. It is hard to believe that you get called 70% of the time.