Too much or just right?

TJD · #1 09-19-2005, 01:54 PM

Hi all. I'd appreciate some comment. I've been reviewing my post flop play and have decided that the further I have moved up limits the less aggressive I have become.

I suspect that part of that has been due to correctly adjusting to more aggressive players; allowing them to hang themselves, but I believe I have overdone it and slipped into excessive passivity.

Armed with a new determination to throw some chips out there, I get this hand earlier today.

Too much? OK?

UTG unknown
MP1 is 19/11 and aggressive. He is a little loose postflop

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $20.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

JAA · #2 09-19-2005, 01:59 PM

FWIW, I would have played it exactly the same.

So, just right.

- Jags

#3 09-19-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all. I'd appreciate some comment. I've been reviewing my post flop play and have decided that the further I have moved up limits the less aggressive I have become.

I suspect that part of that has been due to correctly adjusting to more aggressive players; allowing them to hang themselves, but I believe I have overdone it and slipped into excessive passivity.

Armed with a new determination to throw some chips out there, I get this hand earlier today.

Too much? OK?

UTG unknown
MP1 is 19/11 and aggressive. He is a little loose postflop

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $20.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
PREFLOP: standard. FLOP: Standard. TURN: This is the only debatable part of your hand. Should you 3 bet here or should you just call the checkraise. At this point of the hand I feel very confident that the villain has a set. So reraising the turn is clearly wrong given the fact that the hero is still trailing. Of course nothing is ever that clear. For instance, if you thought that the UTG player would fold a higher flush draw if you 3 bet the turn then it would now be correct to reraise the turn. In this sitaution I would be just call the checkraise on the turn since I would assume correctly or incorrectly that the UTG player would never fold a flush draw in this spot.

random · #4 09-19-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you thought that the UTG player would fold a higher flush draw if you 3 bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]This isn't no limit.

#5 09-20-2005, 08:43 AM

I know this, but I also know that my opponents make mistakes and dont play perfectly, most call too much, but some fold too much. When you get more experienced at this game you will realize that every situation is possible. Ironically, the kind of player who would incorrectly fold in this spot would be a no limit player that doesnt understand how limit holdem works.

#6 09-19-2005, 02:55 PM

Perfect. Well played.

JaysonWeberFCP · #7 09-19-2005, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perfect. Well played.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a great limping hand too.

BarronVangorToth · #8 09-19-2005, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the further I have moved up limits the less aggressive I have become.

[/ QUOTE ]

Besides pre-flop, you bet and raised any chance you could -- I'm not sure how much more aggressive you can be.

This is not to say that you didn't play post flop well, because you did.

With two people limping ahead of you, I see why you didn't raise pre-flop in order to buy the button and take control of the hand. That may have disguised your hand, though, and certainly someone could make an argument to do that for metagame considerations.

I don't think I would've, though.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

TJD · #9 09-19-2005, 03:45 PM

Thx Baron,

Like Westley said, I think the only debateable part is the turn.

Today, being determined to be aggressive I 3 bet. Yesterday, after a flop 3 bet and a turn CR I "may" have slowed down and just called fearing a set.

I am trying to see whether I was right today or would have been right yesterday [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Trevor

ihardlyknowher · #10 09-19-2005, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all. I'd appreciate some comment. I've been reviewing my post flop play and have decided that the further I have moved up limits the less aggressive I have become.

I suspect that part of that has been due to correctly adjusting to more aggressive players; allowing them to hang themselves, but I believe I have overdone it and slipped into excessive passivity.

Armed with a new determination to throw some chips out there, I get this hand earlier today.

Too much? OK?

UTG unknown
MP1 is 19/11 and aggressive. He is a little loose postflop

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $20.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a turn c/r after you cap the flop means at least 2 pair. But there isn't a hand a 19% VPIP would limp with in MP that makes 2 pair on that board. And the turn c/r is not likely to be a semi-bluff since UTG is still in the hand. Thus, I would call down after the turn c/r expecting to lose.