Is my flush good enough?

Stealthy · #1 11-04-2005, 02:13 PM

MP1 here is 73/4/0.5 so your basic loose calling type player.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP3 3-bets, CO calls, Hero caps, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero?

I pumped the pot with my pair and flush draw and makd my flush on the turn. But what do I do in this spot when a passive wakes up? I am going to showdown but for how much?

milesdyson · #2 11-04-2005, 02:14 PM

call down from here is my play

Pyromaniac · #3 11-04-2005, 02:36 PM

*grunch*

MP3...raises preflop, bets and then 3-bets on the flop, then folds to 2 on the turn. Overcards? Or QQ/JJ which are suddenly no good when the K hits and also completes the flush?

MP1 came along for the ride and then wakes up on the turn. Ace-rag [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

And CO is staying to see the river.

Probably you're beat. If I'm reading the SSHE charts right, this is a preflop fold. And this is probably why, to avoid the tough decision on the turn. You're probably beat so feeling too weak to keep jamming the pot...but you might not be beat (maybe it's a scare-card bluff and the pot is getting big enough to want to stay around), so you feel too strong to just fold here. So instead you cross your fingers and call it down and hope MP1 has KT or something raggedy like that and that CO has some other sort of junk.

So. If he's bluffing/drawing/calling with something but not the nuts (maybe a slowplayed TT or something), you raise.

If he's not doing that and *does* have the overflush, you fold.

If you don't know, you call. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Swax · #4 11-04-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If I'm reading the SSHE charts right, this is a preflop fold.

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I'm pretty sure that SSHE wouldn't advocate folding this from the big blind against a single raise - the chart might not reflect it, but I think the general sentiment expressed from the book is that you can liberally call one raise from the BB with suited cards, especially ones with minor straight possibilities like our 2-gapper here.

As many have stated, MP1 waking up is certainly either a flush or 2-pair, and the chances that it's 2-pair definitely show that you can't fold here. Not to mention, even if it is a flush, hero's flush isn't THAT low - let's not forget that 8-9 of hearts and to a lesser extent 3-4 of hearts are also hands that people realistically could have here.

The real question on this hand is CO...his presence (and presumably dead money) makes calling down all that much more appealing, but WTF does he have? Maybe just something like J-10 and he's a real moron? I know results posting is bad - you don't even have to say what MP1 had but I'm really curious on CO!

Pyromaniac · #5 11-04-2005, 04:51 PM

I don't read SSHE as being quite that liberal with suited cards...but I'm hardly an expert, either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

pg. 71 suggests that T7s is one of the weaker of these hands, and I don't see many two-gappers in the charts on 80-83, tight or loose.

My read is that this would've been okay with at least one more player in the pot (a four-or-more, other than Hero, situation). Whether it's still worth it with only three others in, I don't know.

The other angle, which I haven't worked the numbers on, is what it looks like for one of the other players to have only 1 of the suited overcards: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], or J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] -- maybe AA/QQ/JJ, but with a heart in there, getting odds to stay for another heart on the river (while thinking that the overpair to the T-high flop might still be good).

Or could be KK that just made the set on the turn and is behind to a flush but still can make the boat by the river.

tiltaholic · #6 11-04-2005, 03:02 PM

sometimes i'll call down.
sometimes i'll 3-bet.

i wrote a long response but the forum ate it.

but basically...sometimes this is a dumb player getting all excited over 2 pair

TomBrooks · #7 11-04-2005, 03:15 PM

Call it down. Flush is only 4th highest.

tyler_cracker · #8 11-04-2005, 03:15 PM

Bet the flop, planning to 3-bet.

There's no way you should ever fold this turn. Your flush is well-disguised. I agree with miles that you should call down, though.

tiltaholic · #9 11-04-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, planning to 3-bet.

There's no way you should ever fold this turn. Your flush is well-disguised. I agree with miles that you should call down, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh yeah. i meant to say this too. lead the flop.

Stealthy · #10 11-04-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, planning to 3-bet.

There's no way you should ever fold this turn. Your flush is well-disguised. I agree with miles that you should call down, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh yeah. i meant to say this too. lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt that leading the flop or check/raising were both pretty close. The likely bettor was in a middle position and I felt if he bet and got a caller before I raised I could get more money in. The cold call before the 3 bet was an added bonus, with the 3 bet giving me a clear value cap.

Pre-flop call was a little loose maybe. When MP3 raised I remember saying to myself "1 cold-caller and I'll take a look"! So I did. I fold most suited cards here, but like to play them with a couple in if I have some connectiveness.

This is how the hand played out

Hero calls.

River Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks !!!!!!!!!!

Now I know my hand is good.

MP1 shows K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , 2 pair kings and tens
CO shows K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2 pair kings and queens

MHIG

Can't beleive the river got checked through with 2 lots of 2 pair out and my flush! Damn.

I lost to flush over flush 1/2 hour earlier with a Jack high flush when we both flopped our hands. So a little worried about it again I guess.