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#1
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88 Out of Position
I never grasp the line an opponent took in the following hand, so maybe you can explain it to me. Comments on my play also welcome:
Villain raises 3 off button and I 3-bet in CO, all fold and villain calls. Flop is: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villain bets, I raise, villain calls. Turn is: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villain checks, I bet, villain calls. River is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Vilain checks, I check. For now I'll mereley reveal villain's hand and please evaluate his play...he showed black 8s. Later I'll tell you my hand. |
#2
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Re: 88 Out of Position
Villain's openraise from MP is standard.
He doesn't know whether you hit the flop or not, and he's got a hand so he decides to take the lead and inform you of this fact. When you raise, he hopes you have overcard(s) and/or a flush draw and he decides to call down. Many are incapable of folding medium pocket pairs in this spot, so they just call down and pray. It's very profitable (for you). |
#3
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Re: 88 Out of Position
So then is it ever the right line? Do they usually fold big bet streets when a flush card or Bway card comes? How about a 9?
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#4
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Re: 88 Out of Position
I don't like Villain's flop lead very much. He's a big underdog to your range on that flop, and you were going to auto-bet anyway, right?
However, let's say your range is AA-TT and AK-AQ. In that case, about one time out of three Villain will currently be in the lead on the flop. He also has the worst of the outs (even when he's a favorite, he's not a favorite by much), and his equity sucks. But if an ace, king, or jack falls, he'll see that card and can check-fold. And if none of those cards fall, you might take a free card on the turn or take a free showdown on the river. So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right. |
#5
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Re: 88 Out of Position
[ QUOTE ]
So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right. [/ QUOTE ] i guess your hand was too weak to value bet the river? |
#6
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Re: 88 Out of Position
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right. [/ QUOTE ] i guess your hand was too weak to value bet the river? [/ QUOTE ] If Villain is going to bet the river, it isn't for value, exactly. Villain is not only an underdog if Hero doesn't fold, but Villain is also a substantial underdog at the time when he's making the bet. I don't think Hero will fold a better hand, and if that's the case, Villain is betting hoping to get called by ace-high and also hoping not to get bluff-raised by a Hero who recognizes the check-call, check-call, bet line and wants to try to exploit it. It's true that Hero will bet his winning hands if checked to (except for maybe JJ and also maybe 99). And, sometimes, Hero won't bet AK himself. But sometimes he will (if the play I've been running into lately is any indication), and in my opinion we're too big of an underdog to make a river bet worthwhile. Aside from opening ourselves up to a bluff-raise, I'm also not entirely sure Hero will call with AK more often than he'll bluff with it if checked to. If (as Villain) we're going to be aggressive in the hand, I think the place to do so is on the turn. And I think it's a good idea to do so if our read is that Hero is straightforward when facing aggression on the big streets. (But if Hero is the type to take a free card on the turn with AK, then I like a turn check-fold for Villain.) And, anyway, all of this is assuming a full table. On the actual short table, Hero's range is wider and there's also probably a little more bluffing and semi-bluffing going on. I'm not sure how much we should expand Hero's range, but if we're including the actual AJ, for instance, then maybe the case for a river bet becomes a little stronger. Well, except for this: Will Hero actually call with AJ? Hmm. If we're seeing a showdown, I think I still like check-calling the river. |
#7
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Re: 88 Out of Position
hey nick,
by the time i realized what hero had i could not edit my post. when i asked i did not know what hero held. only a bluffoon would bet AdJd here, especially against an opponent who is clearly calling down. |
#8
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Re: 88 Out of Position
[ QUOTE ]
hey nick, by the time i realized what hero had i could not edit my post. when i asked i did not know what hero held. only a bluffoon would bet AdJd here, especially against an opponent who is clearly calling down. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, I thought you were talking about a value bet from Villain's 88. I agree that, for Hero, firing again with AJ won't work often enough. |
#9
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Re: 88 Out of Position
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right. [/ QUOTE ] i guess your hand was too weak to value bet the river? [/ QUOTE ] If Villain is going to bet the river, it isn't for value, exactly. Villain is not only an underdog if Hero doesn't fold, but Villain is also a substantial underdog at the time when he's making the bet. I don't think Hero will fold a better hand, and if that's the case, Villain is betting hoping to get called by ace-high and also hoping not to get bluff-raised by a Hero who recognizes the check-call, check-call, bet line and wants to try to exploit it. It's true that Hero will bet his winning hands if checked to (except for maybe JJ and also maybe 99). And, sometimes, Hero won't bet AK himself. But sometimes he will (if the play I've been running into lately is any indication), and in my opinion we're too big of an underdog to make a river bet worthwhile. Aside from opening ourselves up to a bluff-raise, I'm also not entirely sure Hero will call with AK more often than he'll bluff with it if checked to. If (as Villain) we're going to be aggressive in the hand, I think the place to do so is on the turn. And I think it's a good idea to do so if our read is that Hero is straightforward when facing aggression on the big streets. (But if Hero is the type to take a free card on the turn with AK, then I like a turn check-fold for Villain.) And, anyway, all of this is assuming a full table. On the actual short table, Hero's range is wider and there's also probably a little more bluffing and semi-bluffing going on. I'm not sure how much we should expand Hero's range, but if we're including the actual AJ, for instance, then maybe the case for a river bet becomes a little stronger. Well, except for this: Will Hero actually call with AJ? Hmm. If we're seeing a showdown, I think I still like check-calling the river. [/ QUOTE ] This post is well thought out. Thanks. However, I disagree with my PF range being wider 6max vs. ring game. In fact, only difference woud be I might float a tight raiser with a few more hands in a full game (AJs, AQo, 88, KK, but I'd only do this occasionally anyway). In general, wrong or not, I usually treat UTG 6max similarly to 3 off button full. As far as river goes, I've given up on the obviously no good A-high call down so you'd see me calling AJ/AK only occasionally and raising even less frequently (something like 5-10%). So in summary: 1) villain is an underdog to my range (AA-88, AK-AQ, AJs, KQs for arguments sake). We also have to severely discount 88 and 99 since I would never have raised the flop with them. 2) villain will occasionally induce a bluff raise out of me but will only very rarely get a weak A-high call out of me. 3) Most people check behind UI high cards on the river most of the time. Without any math, this seems to argue for a check/fold river line fairly strongly...but of course this line is definitely exploitable if you try it too often. |
#10
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Re: 88 Out of Position
I don't like villain's line at all. Since the flop has been addressed, I'm going to provide my thoughts on the turn. The optimal turn line is bet/fold, in my opinion. When villain is ahead, you'll have ~10 outs (villain is likely only ahead of AK, and possibly AJ), and therefore it's paramount villain charges draws, and avoids giving a free card.
I also think there's a strong argument for check/folding the flop because of the reverse implied odds. It's likely villain is behind, and when ahead you have a vast number of outs to improve to a superior hand. Conversely, villain's drawing close to dead, and it's unlikely you'll pay off with a busted draw/overs. Come to think of it, I'm leaning toward simply folding the flop. |
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