Pokerroom Raids and Players' Money

[Gandor]

As the BW raid thread was getting long, I felt this needed a new thread so a discussion could be made. While IANAL, I believe we as players have a problem when it comes to these raids and our money.

Under the current arrangement with the various rooms in NYC, we as players have no legal ownership to our money while we play our games. We happily give our money to the house in exchange for house currency to use until we call it a night. The problem is, when a raid occurs, the poker room has possession and ownership of our money. At this point all we have are gambling devices which are further evidence of illegal activity.

Is there a way to arrange things such that our money remains legally in our ownership during the course of play? Could escrow laws or some form of contract preserve our ownership status of the money?

I posted this in another thread before I saw your thread. FWIW, an escrow system that puts the clubs on the hook for seizure of funds will never happen. No club owner would agree to that risk, nor should they.

I actually think the clubs should develop a "secure cashier" system, where chips are paid for (and redeemed) offsite from the actual club where play occurs. (Think Japanese Pachkinko parlor approach.)

You go to location A and give the cashier $500. He makes an electronic entry that authorizes you for a rack of reds. You then go to location B and pick up your rack of reds. After pummelling the monkeys for 4 hours, you now have two racks of reds. You take them to the cage at location B, and the cashier there makes an electronic entry authorizing you to pick up $1000. You walk to location A, show ID, and pick up your money.

If the cops ever come to location B, the cashier at location A leaves with the money. The floor at location B takes a chip inventory. Players redeem later.

Granted, there are some security/embezzlement risks with this approach, but if it were done correctly, bankrolls would be a lot more secure.

Look even if you were playing with cash instead of chips you run the risk that the cops will seize all the cash.

Even though it may be debatable whether the police have the authority to seize the cash (they almost certainly at least have the authority to seize it as evidence) but even if they seize it for forfeiture it usually ends up costing you more to go and fight the seizure than to give up the money.

Bottom line is that these clubs need to be lowkey. People should only bring as much money as they need and everyone should be aware that they are taking the risk that they could lose their whole roll to a raid.

The way for players to get their money back is to stand up and shout to those that will listen (and many of you have enough money that people will listen) about how the money that is being taken is not evidence of any crime. By what everyone says the manhattan cops are NOT writing summonses and repeatedly tell you that what you are doing is NOT a crime. The money on the table is YOURS. The only evidence of the crime that the cops are charging is the time. Until all the people that play and frequent the clubs unite together the cops will continue to smell the blood, continue to feed on the easy prey. No one that I know of has made a report, fought this, went to precincts to claim their money etc...

The point is...editorial pages, congressman, DA's elections (Brooklyn is coming up), etc are the ways to fight this.
Silence just makes them stronger...

[ QUOTE ]
The way for players to get their money back is to stand up and shout to those that will listen (and many of you have enough money that poeple will listen) about how the money that is being taken is not evidence of any crime. By what everyone says the manhattan cops are NOT writing summonses and repeatedly tell you that what you are doing is NOT a crime.

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Are we talking about cash on the table or chips?

Eaither way the fact that you as a player are not committing a crime does not mean that the money or chips you are using is not evidence of a crime. Money in play at a cardroom would certainly would be evidence of the crime being comiitted by the operater of the room (since if there is nothing being wagered there is no crime at all).

Another thing to remember is that the fact that the police are not arresting players does not mean that there is no legal basis to do so. A very reasonable argument could be made that a player with cards or chips in his possession is in possession of a gambling device.

PL section 225.00(7)

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"Gambling device" means any device, machine, paraphernalia or
equipment which is used or usable in the playing phases of any gambling
activity, whether such activity consists of gambling between persons or
gambling by a person involving the playing of a machine. Notwithstanding
the foregoing, lottery tickets, policy slips and other items used in the
playing phases of lottery and policy schemes are not gambling devices.

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PL 225.00(12)
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"Unlawful" means not specifically authorized by law.

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PL Section 225.30(a)

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Possession of a gambling device.
a. A person is guilty of possession of a gambling device when, with
knowledge of the character thereof, he or she manufactures, sells,
transports, places or possesses, or conducts or negotiates any
transaction affecting or designed to affect ownership, custody or use
of:
. . .
2. Any other gambling device, believing that the same is to be used in
the advancement of unlawful gambling activity; . . .


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At this point the police are not pursuing this theory because they don't see the need to do so. If players put up to much of a fight about the seized money the police may decide to start charging players if nothing more than to put pressure on them for forfeiture purposes.

I agree that you should fight this through the lawful processes of elections and petitioning your government etc. . . but keep in mind that if you are present at one of these raids, this is not a good time to open your mouth about these matters.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

You still have angels dancing on that pin... you are worse than me (and that is bad)... recent law school grad or just obsessive?

Long ago law school grad, retired from practice. bored.

Also from the other thread an idea I would like to offer for discussion here:

I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

[ QUOTE ]
Also from the other thread an idea I would like to offer for discussion here:

I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

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wow, you mean like....having a home game in somebodys apartment/basement/garage?

nobody has EVER thought of this before [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

the semi-open nature of these clubs is what attracts fish and is why people play in them instead of playing in a home game where everyone that plays would have to be approved (what you suggest)

if youre suggesting someone run a rakeless undergroud room, be my guest to piss away thousands of dollars a month on dealers/rent/equipment and get zero in return.