Can I please fold these queens and stop throwing away $?

[KSOT]

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

I'm so sick of calling down when I KNOW they were ace chasing. Can I fold that river or maybe even the turn raise? I'm assuming your answers will invraiably be "no."

[wyoak]

don't fold the river if you call the turn.

[KSOT]

I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't know you have a hand worth calling down with, for all he knows you have rags and were raising preflop and betting flop and turn because you thought you could bully him out of the pot. Folding the turn may even get you future value bets because he'll think "oh there's that turn bet/folder trying to run me over again, I'll show him and call down."

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a line in SSH regarding this that I think many take out of context. But if this guy is a solid player then I think this is an easy fold. I agree with the logic that if you call the turn bet, you have to call the river (committed yourself to a showdown). Showdown or fold in this spot might be read dependent (habitual bluffer) . But either this guy is executing a very good bluff or you are drawing to 2 outs. Any numbers/reads on the villian?

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a line in SSH regarding this that I think many take out of context. But if this guy is a solid player then I think this is an easy fold. I agree with the logic that if you call the turn bet, you have to call the river (committed yourself to a showdown). Showdown or fold in this spot might be read dependent (habitual bluffer) . But either this guy is executing a very good bluff or you are drawing to 2 outs. Any numbers/reads on the villian?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a tougher laydown against a very good opponent. A good opponent will rarely coldcall with Ax, it is a raise or fold, and a good player also usually does not ace chase. I will ocassionally make a similar play myself in that situation without an A (usually with a pocket pair, but sometimes a complete bluff). It can only be done against another very good player though who is willing to make that laydown. I will fold immediately to a 3-bet, and check behind on the river if he calls the raise. I haven't done it enough to really find out if its +EV or not, and it probably isn't a move applicable to .50/1. I just thought I would share it, and maybe see what others think about it.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a line in SSH regarding this that I think many take out of context. But if this guy is a solid player then I think this is an easy fold. I agree with the logic that if you call the turn bet, you have to call the river (committed yourself to a showdown). Showdown or fold in this spot might be read dependent (habitual bluffer) . But either this guy is executing a very good bluff or you are drawing to 2 outs. Any numbers/reads on the villian?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a tougher laydown against a very good opponent. A good opponent will rarely coldcall with Ax, it is a raise or fold, and a good player also usually does not ace chase. I will ocassionally make a similar play myself in that situation without an A (usually with a pocket pair, but sometimes a complete bluff). It can only be done against another very good player though who is willing to make that laydown. I will fold immediately to a 3-bet, and check behind on the river if he calls the raise. I haven't done it enough to really find out if its +EV or not, and it probably isn't a move applicable to .50/1. I just thought I would share it, and maybe see what others think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you're up against a good player you have to bet the river if he calls your bluff turn bet. A lot of players won't fold to a raise but will fold UI on the river (he may have a draw to go along with his pair also). Look at how much that advice is given out here for when you're c/r on the turn.

[Brain]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought calling a raise even if you feel you're beat is something you to do not seem overly weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more for the flop than the turn because the bets are smaller on the flop. Go check out SSH p.241. I had problems with calling down turn raises like these and it was a definitely bankroll killer. Thanks to Entity and (I think) Shillx for helping me get my head around that one a while ago.

[KSOT]

[ QUOTE ]
This is more for the flop than the turn because the bets are smaller on the flop. Go check out SSH p.241. I had problems with calling down turn raises like these and it was a definitely bankroll killer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm glad I'm finding out now. I was calling down to the river EVERY time. I guess I was misunderstanding SSHE. I think I do that a lot.

[A_C_Slater]

Folding the turn isn't bad. Though I would probably end up calling down like you did against the CO open limper out of spite. But in retrospect, I don't think he's bluff raising a Ace "scare card" 1 in 5 times here.