Folding QQ on Flop

PJM1206 · #1 07-18-2005, 11:16 AM

Ok wimp or what? No reads this was players 3rd hand. Player only sat for a total of 3 hands so... no idea.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 6 folds, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

I figured that for him to raise UTG and then cap my riase he had to have AK, AA, KK, QQ but I realize there are other hands he could also have but just sitting down as he did I fgured he had the stronger of the hands. I didnt want to check and call all the way down. I had no re-draws like Qd so if he had QQ he held the diamond so I loose to anyhting but JJ and again even JJ with J diamond or any pair with diamond I am looking like I will beat. Thus the fold

Rosencrantz1 · #2 07-18-2005, 11:35 AM

He may very well have been ahead of you on the flop. However, he may have had many hands that the flop missed or that only hit slightly (e.g., AK). In those cases, he is as scared of the flush as you are and, since you have position, you missed an opportunity to raise him on the flop and see what happened. If he raised back, then maybe you do fold. However, if he called your raise on the flop he may very well have given you a free card on the turn.

I think the laydown to one bet in a big pot on the river is too weak/tight. I would raise.

evans075 · #3 07-18-2005, 12:03 PM

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He may very well have been ahead of you on the flop. However, he may have had many hands that the flop missed or that only hit slightly (e.g., AK). In those cases, he is as scared of the flush as you are and, since you have position, you missed an opportunity to raise him on the flop and see what happened. If he raised back, then maybe you do fold. However, if he called your raise on the flop he may very well have given you a free card on the turn.

I think the laydown to one bet in a big pot on the river is too weak/tight. I would raise.

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I agree with this!! You will be shocked at how many times I've raised in this position and had UTG fold to me. Now if you are faced with a 3-bet, I'm dumping! A call, and a check on the turn I'm torn b/t taking a free card or betting out. I'm more towards the fee card b/c you very well could be against a slow played AA or a made flush (doubt the latter). Then again we are faced with if he has AA he to is afraid of the flush and hopes for the board to pair but he still isn't going to let them go. So after writing this down and thinking about it I've decided to raise the flop, fold to a 3-bed, and take a free card on the turn!

Aaron W. · #4 07-18-2005, 12:32 PM

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He may very well have been ahead of you on the flop. However, he may have had many hands that the flop missed or that only hit slightly (e.g., AK).

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Heads up, TPTK is not a "hit slightly" hand. Barring another diamond, you can expect this to go to a showdown with Hero drawing to two outs. And if another diamond hits, you're probably going to fold anyway (at least, you should).

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In those cases, he is as scared of the flush as you are and, since you have position, you missed an opportunity to raise him on the flop and see what happened.

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Unless his kicker is a diamond, then he simply doesn't care. A curiosity flop raise here is bad for your bankroll. The liklihood of winning this pot right now for two small bets is very tiny (certainly less than 20%). So you're going to have to invest at least 4 SB (2 SB now, 1 BB on the turn) to try to steal this pot away. That means you're investing about 40% of the pot to win the pot. That's not so good.

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If he raised back, then maybe you do fold.

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If you can't fold after getting 3-bet, then you shouldn't be raising in the first place.

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However, if he called your raise on the flop he may very well have given you a free card on the turn.

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That's not such a good thing. A free card on the turn isn't worth it because even if you get it 100% of the time, you're still not getting the right odds to play for it. Rethink this line because it makes absolutely no sense.

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I think the laydown to one bet in a big pot on the river is too weak/tight. I would raise.

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Well, we're talking about a flop bet. And we're talking about the compounding error of calling more bets after the flop. Fold now and save yourself the money and the hassle.

mwilli31 · #5 07-18-2005, 01:05 PM

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However, if he called your raise on the flop he may very well have given you a free card on the turn.
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That's not such a good thing. A free card on the turn isn't worth it because even if you get it 100% of the time, you're still not getting the right odds to play for it. Rethink this line because it makes absolutely no sense.

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At first I liked the idea of three-betting to see where you are in the hand, but even if you are called and then checked to on the turn, you're really only drawing to the [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q since the other queen puts 4 diamonds on board.
I'm agreeing with Aaron on this one, get out while you can.

evans075 · #6 07-18-2005, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, if he called your raise on the flop he may very well have given you a free card on the turn.
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That's not such a good thing. A free card on the turn isn't worth it because even if you get it 100% of the time, you're still not getting the right odds to play for it. Rethink this line because it makes absolutely no sense.

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At first I liked the idea of three-betting to see where you are in the hand, but even if you are called and then checked to on the turn, you're really only drawing to the [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q since the other queen puts 4 diamonds on board.
I'm agreeing with Aaron on this one, get out while you can.

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I posted just a second ago that this is a read determinate call. Drop against a TAG, and I'm raising agains a LPP!

evans075 · #7 07-18-2005, 01:09 PM

Everything you said is right. But, in my experiece I like the flop raise against a LPP, again I based my post which agrees with the poster you have replied to with the aspect of facing a LPP. Reads would make this decision alot easier. Its easy to let go against a TAG but LPP, i'm riding him hard!!!

LowDown22 · #8 07-18-2005, 01:24 PM

I like the fold especially against an unknown. Very slim chance you are ahead and almost no chance to improve.

Isn't a LPP likely to call you down? And isn't this same LPP only likely to cap preflop with some very solid hands that are now ahead of you on the flop...he is passive after all.

evans075 · #9 07-18-2005, 01:32 PM

Your right but I still believe that against him we could be ahead. I just might be in a tunnel b/c latley I've been faced with LPP and LAG going crazy preflop with 99,88,77,66 and suited connectors (wich could be bad in this case) to me down and me win the hand. I don't know if its some new breed of loose cannons or I'm just seeing some wierd [censored]. I acually had the same-type hand and dropped my QQ preflop to a bet and a raise b4 me to see 33 as the winner, no flush, no set, no two pair, yes a pair of 3's. I just don't like letting this go without testing the waters a little.

Aaron W. · #10 07-18-2005, 01:33 PM

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Everything you said is right. But, in my experiece I like the flop raise against a LPP, again I based my post which agrees with the poster you have replied to with the aspect of facing a LPP. Reads would make this decision alot easier. Its easy to let go against a TAG but LPP, i'm riding him hard!!!

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So... you want to play against LPP who capped preflop and led into a very very scary flop? Maybe you don't know what the P stands for... I'm actually more inclined to raise an aggressive TAG because a TAG might be overplaying a hand like 99 preflop (since it's heads up) and might be bet-folding this flop. He might also be bet-folding JJ-TT.