Overcard challenge

[Nate tha' Great]

I hearby challenge all small stakes posters - and anybody else reading this really - to provide examples of where raising the flop with just overcards is correct.

Some specific conditions/requirements:

1) You MUST have had the lead (put the last raise in) on the preflop betting round. e.g. if you decide to just call in the BB with AQo and check-raise a ragged flop, that does not qualify.

2) You CANNOT have an OESD (e.g. KQ on a JTx flop) or a four-flush. Backdoor draws are okay, though.

3) You MUST provide player reads.

4) The raise may be either a raise of a bet or a 3-bet of a check-raise (or I suppose 3-bet of a bet and a raise).

5) You MUST describe, in some amount of detail, your intentions for the rest of your hand following your raise.

This is a challenge, not a contest, so there will be no prize.

Fire away.

-Nate

[brettbrettr]

I'll give it a go....

I have AsJs in the CO. UTG +1, a tight passive player limps. Fold to LMP loose passive type who limps, Hero raises, BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for 9.5sbs: 2h 2s 4d.

BB checks, UTG bets, loose passive calls, Hero raises expecting both UTG and MP fish to call.

I'm putting the tight passive EP player on a mid-PP, giving me 6 clean outs, not to mention my bd straight and flush draws. Call it approx 8 outs due to the paired board. LMP fish has 2 overs and doesn't like to fold on this sort of raggety flop.

I'm taking a free card on the turn and folding the river u/i. I'm raising EP's river auto-bet if I do improve.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give it a go....

I have AsJs in the CO. UTG +1, a tight passive player limps. Fold to LMP loose passive type who limps, Hero raises, BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for 9.5sbs: 2h 2s 4d.

BB checks, UTG bets, loose passive calls, Hero raises expecting both UTG and MP fish to call.

I'm putting the tight passive EP player on a mid-PP, giving me 6 clean outs, not to mention my bd straight and flush draws. Call it approx 8 outs due to the paired board. LMP fish has 2 overs and doesn't like to fold on this sort of raggety flop.

I'm taking a free card on the turn and folding the river u/i. I'm raising EP's river auto-bet if I do improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

[mscags]

I think it is. It always amazes me how easy it is to get a free card.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a free card play that makes our hand look like a big pair. Tight passive players aren't 3 betting me here often.

I don't however have a ton of confidence in betting the turn into 2 players. Clearly I bet if I improve.

The question is what do I do when the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is what do I do when the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely betting that card. We've got both plenty of legitimate equity and plenty of bluffing equity so I'm betting and calling all raises. I'd probably also bet a king that didn't give us the flush draw, FWIW.

[brettbrettr]

Yup, agreed. Have to given the play thus far.

[Moneyline]

A maniac limps UTG, I raise with AK, the fairly passive button calls, everyone folds to the maniac who calls.

Flop: J63 rainbow (or anything else ragged)

Maniac bets, I raise.

The raise is to drive out the button. The maniac is capable of having anything, and since my hand has good showdown value I'm probably best. I'm taking this hand to the showdown barring only a couple exceptions (like sudden unconsciousness). If the maniac 3bets, I'm calling down if I don't improve. If the maniac calls, I'm betting the turn and checking behind on the river if I don't improve.

[Nate tha' Great]

Okay, this one I approve of. Clearly it may be worth raising when there's some chance that you have the best hand, especially if you also have the chance to protect that hand.

[Guruman]

recent imaginary hand at the My Bath Room 5/10 live:

Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG (generally tight preflop, weak player postflop) open-raises.

folds to hero, hero 3-bets. sb folds, bb(LAG)calls , UTG calls.

flop is 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG folds, hero raises.

Thoughts:

Preflop, UTG probably open raised with big suited broadways down to ATs/KQs or a pp down to 99. I don't see him making this move much with a smaller pp, as he'd most likely limp with those.

I re-raised in order to isolate with my own strong hand, and to try to pick up a draw if the flop didn't hit.

BB probably saw this as a blind steal move from me, and may have called with a wider range of overcards (probably down to 78s) and pocket pairs (I'd guess down to 55)

flop:

BB's bet may be a probe bet with overcards, a PP hoping for a re-raise, or a LAG pure bluff. UTG clearly did not want to get caught between two aggressive players with what he held, and got out.

Based on the wide range of hands that BB may be playing, my Ace may be good about 25% of the time by itself here. The Q kicker may be good another 25% or so of the time. I also have a backdoor flush draw, and a backdoor straight draw. Outside of a queen, the 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would be my ideal turn card here. If I'm behind, I'd count my three aces as mostly good outs, my three queens about the same, and my BD draws at 1.5 outs each. Full value says that's 9 outs, so I'll discount that to 8 to account for a villain AK or AQ (chop).

I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing.

Also, this would be an ok spot to sniff out a set or medium pp on the turn, since a call/checkraise or call/betraise line from BB probably would mean that I was beat and could safely fold.

If I'm re-raised, I'll call and re-evaluate on the turn.