Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[SheridanCat]

Yes, that's right.

The reason is this. When you flop a four-flush (with 2 in your hand) you are about 2:1 (effective odds) to make it by the river. The pots odds are almost always going to be there to see it to the end. If you don't have the pot odds to call, you should find another game because the one you're in is way too tight.

If you only hold one of the flush suit, it should be the nut card or maybe the second nut card to continue against heavy action.

Does that make sense?

Regards,

T

Wow. I have won a few hands chasing the flush draw but had always thought that I was doing something wrong chasing them down. Going against the 'fit or fold' mentality that I was told was godd beginner play. Perhaps I'm not! (I'm so new at this game it hurts sometimes!!!).

My on

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I have won a few hands chasing the flush draw but had always thought that I was doing something wrong chasing them down. Going against the 'fit or fold' mentality that I was told was godd beginner play. Perhaps I'm not! (I'm so new at this game it hurts sometimes!!!).

My on

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"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.

Read SSHE - then re-read it - and you will understand.

Flush draws are VERY strong - in large part because when you win, you will tend to win a big pot.

[SheridanCat]

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"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.


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It does breed weak-tight play. This is one of my criticisims of the 2nd edition of WLLH. Jones often suggest you should be looking for reasons to fold.

I think playing fit-or-fold will allow you to, perhaps, break even. So, that's something. But it won't make you a winner.

Regards,

T

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"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.

Read SSHE - then re-read it - and you will understand.



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I really wish I had found this site before some of the others I've read and listened to advice given on TV etc. It appears a lot of things I thought were good have been designed to reduce the potential loss of playing. I want to learn to play good poker not just learn to bleed to death more slowly! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.

Read SSHE - then re-read it - and you will understand.



[/ QUOTE ]

I really wish I had found this site before some of the others I've read and listened to advice given on TV etc. It appears a lot of things I thought were good have been designed to reduce the potential loss of playing. I want to learn to play good poker not just learn to bleed to death more slowly! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes - I think the most influential one-liner I ever received was "Your goal is to win money, not to win pots." It takes a lot of thinking to fully understand all the implications of this simple phrase. What I really ended up getting from it was learning to be willing to lose as long as I was taking good odds while doing it. Previous to that I really felt like I had to win every hand I played.

Much of the beginner advice you typically run across is focused around cutting your losses just as you said. But what if I gave you this proposition: We'll roll a die and on a 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 you'll pay me $1. On a 6 I'll pay you $8. You're going to lose over 83% of the time. But you should jump on this bet nonetheless because clearly it is a good bet. The only thing that really matters is that the payoff on the times you win exceeds the payout on the times you fail. In this case .83 * $1 < .17 * $8. In fact, even if I only pay you $6 this bet is still profitable for you!

Flush draws are the same concept. They may only hit 1/3 of the time, but if the pot is big enough compared to the amount you have to put in then it's a good bet even though you'll lose more frequently than you win.

[SheridanCat]

Fit or fold is a safe position, but you're often giving up a lot of equity. And a four-flush on the flop - fits. Almost always.

Here's a scenario where you don't want to continue:

2/4 Limit Holdem.

You're in the small blind holding K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

The action folds around to you and you call (just for the sake of the example - you'd normally raise here) and the big blind checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot: 2 SBs)

You check your nut flush draw. BB bets. It's a small bet back to you. The pot is offering you 3:1 and you're 2:1 to make your flush by the river, so you call.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (Pot: 2BBs)

You check and the BB bets. Now you're getting 3:1 from the pot but the odds are about 4:1 to make the flush on the last card. So, according to the pot odds, you should fold. This makes sense since if your spade comes on the turn the implied odds are basically gone - you won't get enough then to pay off your loose call here. So, you fold.

It should also be noted here that the call on the flop was incorrect. Since the hand is so small it might appear I'm getting 2:1 but those are my odds only if I see this hand all the way to the river. Unfortunately, as we figured out too late, if I did make my flush I wasn't going to get enough action on the river to satisfy those 2:1 odds I thought I was getting.

Parenthetically, this is why a straight draw in this situation is better. It's much less obvious when you hit and you can often count on action from a hand like top pair.

The game is going to have to be about that tight for you not to be getting proper odds to call to see the river. And I, for one, haven't been in a game that tight in ages. If I were, I'd find a new game.

Regards,

T

The exception that proves the rule - if just one more person calls preflop and calls on the flop - or if you have 2 more callers preflop - then it is a break-even proposition to call the turn bet.

[Rev. Good Will]

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Fit or fold is a safe position, but you're often giving up a lot of equity. And a four-flush on the flop - fits. Almost always.

Here's a scenario where you don't want to continue:

2/4 Limit Holdem.

You're in the small blind holding K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

The action folds around to you and you call (just for the sake of the example - you'd normally raise here) and the big blind checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot: 2 SBs)

You check your nut flush draw. BB bets. It's a small bet back to you. The pot is offering you 3:1 and you're 2:1 to make your flush by the river, so you call.

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dude, you know you're supposed to go by odds for the next card only, right?

you are offered 1:3 on a 1:~4 (little more)

but you should still call, cause you can make up the unprofitable call you just made on later streets