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#1
06-30-2005, 02:12 AM
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An AQ hand inspired from SS2
Curious what you guys think. Both plays are worth questioning imo.
You have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 players limp and you call on the Button. SB folds BB checks. Flop is T-6-7 rainbow. Somebody bets, say MP1 after two checks. Hero folds. Doesn't matter if there was a caller between the bet or not. Comments? 
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#2
06-30-2005, 02:19 AM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
SS2 tells you to limp this PF? Raise.
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#4
06-30-2005, 03:26 AM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
I really don't think it is that close. We exploit our edge post flop and concede that in doing so we create a very draw happy pot if we hit. If we hit, then we are a favorite but a vunerable one, So be it. When we hit, we profit from being drawing even with the correct odds. At low limits people will be only slightly less likely to draw with a pot half the size, so we might as well exploit our edge while we have it, and enjoy the profit post flop. In the long run we come out ahead by making the pot larger.
While in theory we want to make people make unprofitable calls by having incorrect pot odds, when given the choice of a player who will make the call if the pot is 6 SB or 12 SB, I would rather give them correct odds in a 12 SB pot than incorrect odds in a 6 BB pot. They may not make a mistake, but we will win far more often than they will, so the larger pot is advantageous.
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#5
06-30-2005, 04:09 AM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
[ QUOTE ]
It does, specifically if "6 players limp in". But I think that the advice, if it is wrong, is not obviously so. It requires some thought and analysis. [/ QUOTE ] This idea in HEPFAP is more applicable when people are limping reasonable hands like 66, T9s, etc. When people at this limit are limping crap like J7o, you have too much equity preflop not to push.
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#6
06-30-2005, 04:15 AM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It does, specifically if "6 players limp in". But I think that the advice, if it is wrong, is not obviously so. It requires some thought and analysis. [/ QUOTE ] This idea in HEPFAP is more applicable when people are limping reasonable hands like 66, T9s, etc. When people at this limit are limping crap like J7o, you have too much equity preflop not to push. [/ QUOTE ] The equity given in my 5th post is fine even vs random hands, so the analysis that follows needs to be dealt with. "You have too much equity preflop" -- 22.5% roughly, which gains you about 1SB when you raise. Again, if the math is correct. But it is simply false that you give that 1SB up. You are putting it on hold, it isn't gone. You need to make it up somewhere, usually the flop. Can you? Sure, I think so. That you can debate. But other gains are mentioned as well, fwiw. Hand 1: 22.4976 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { AQo } Hand 2: 12.8498 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 3: 12.8261 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 4: 12.9865 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 5: 12.9376 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 6: 12.9586 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 7: 12.9439 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }
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#7
06-30-2005, 04:24 AM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It does, specifically if "6 players limp in". But I think that the advice, if it is wrong, is not obviously so. It requires some thought and analysis. [/ QUOTE ] This idea in HEPFAP is more applicable when people are limping reasonable hands like 66, T9s, etc. When people at this limit are limping crap like J7o, you have too much equity preflop not to push. [/ QUOTE ] The equity given in my 5th post is fine even vs random hands, so the analysis that follows needs to be dealt with. "You have too much equity preflop" -- 22.5% roughly, which gains you about 1SB when you raise. Again, if the math is correct. But it is simply false that you give that 1SB up. You are putting it on hold, it isn't gone. You need to make it up somewhere, usually the flop. Can you? Sure, I think so. That you can debate. But other gains are mentioned as well, fwiw. Hand 1: 22.4976 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { AQo } Hand 2: 12.8498 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 3: 12.8261 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 4: 12.9865 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 5: 12.9376 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 6: 12.9586 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 7: 12.9439 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } [/ QUOTE ] It's not a matter of making up 1 SB somewhere postflop, its a matter of whether not raising preflop will cause you to make more that if you did with an extra 1SB deficit.
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#8
06-30-2005, 04:24 AM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It does, specifically if "6 players limp in". But I think that the advice, if it is wrong, is not obviously so. It requires some thought and analysis. [/ QUOTE ] This idea in HEPFAP is more applicable when people are limping reasonable hands like 66, T9s, etc. When people at this limit are limping crap like J7o, you have too much equity preflop not to push. [/ QUOTE ] The equity given in my 5th post is fine even vs random hands, so the analysis that follows needs to be dealt with. "You have too much equity preflop" -- 22.5% roughly, which gains you about 1SB when you raise. Again, if the math is correct. But it is simply false that you give that 1SB up. You are putting it on hold, it isn't gone. You need to make it up somewhere, usually the flop. Can you? Sure, I think so. That you can debate. But other gains are mentioned as well, fwiw. Hand 1: 22.4976 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { AQo } Hand 2: 12.8498 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 3: 12.8261 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 4: 12.9865 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 5: 12.9376 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 6: 12.9586 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 7: 12.9439 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } [/ QUOTE ] No, you just lost that 1sb, or whatever you calculate as your edge. Postflop, you have to make 1sb more than you would have had you raised.
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#9
06-30-2005, 12:31 PM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It does, specifically if "6 players limp in". But I think that the advice, if it is wrong, is not obviously so. It requires some thought and analysis. [/ QUOTE ] This idea in HEPFAP is more applicable when people are limping reasonable hands like 66, T9s, etc. When people at this limit are limping crap like J7o, you have too much equity preflop not to push. [/ QUOTE ] The equity given in my 5th post is fine even vs random hands, so the analysis that follows needs to be dealt with. "You have too much equity preflop" -- 22.5% roughly, which gains you about 1SB when you raise. Again, if the math is correct. But it is simply false that you give that 1SB up. You are putting it on hold, it isn't gone. You need to make it up somewhere, usually the flop. Can you? Sure, I think so. That you can debate. But other gains are mentioned as well, fwiw. Hand 1: 22.4976 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { AQo } Hand 2: 12.8498 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 3: 12.8261 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 4: 12.9865 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 5: 12.9376 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 6: 12.9586 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } Hand 7: 12.9439 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random } [/ QUOTE ] Jesus H [censored] Christ! (pardon my expression) Are these guys looking at their cards? Edit: I thought we'd already implicitly agreed not to use random cards after seeing the results of JTs' equity edge preflop against normal cards vs random cards...
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#10
06-30-2005, 10:51 AM
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Re: An AQ hand inspired from SS2
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It does, specifically if "6 players limp in". But I think that the advice, if it is wrong, is not obviously so. It requires some thought and analysis. [/ QUOTE ] This idea in HEPFAP is more applicable when people are limping reasonable hands like 66, T9s, etc. When people at this limit are limping crap like J7o, you have too much equity preflop not to push. [/ QUOTE ]
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