Blind Defense (In General)

[sthief09]

this is a post I never made but saved in a text file back in May. I wanted to run some hand histories through the converter but never got a chance to. pasting it because it might spark a decent discussion


Out of position, without initiative, and holding a marginal hand, blind defense situations are probably the easiest way to spew chips all over the place. I think a lot of people have problems with it, including myself.

I recently went through my recent blind defense hands and noticed that I was really getting manhandled. So I want to state some goals and post some hands, and hopefully we can all get better at defending.

Note: I don't want see the term "pot odds" referred to preflop play once in this thread. it's a pet peeve of mine. In most cases, they don't apply

Problems:
- We don't have initiative (unless we're 3-betting)
- We're out of position
- we often have a weak or marginal hand

Advantages:
- We're in for one bet already, so it only costs one more
- Headsup, high card strength matters less, as a pair of 6s will win almost as much as a pair of 9s. As a result we're rarely much of an underdog.
- We (hopefully) have an edge on our opponents.

Solutions:
- To combat a lack of initiative, we can 3-bet preflop or check raise or weak lead the flop. I don't really like the weak lead, especially if you're weak.
- We need to get to showdown as often as we can. This is is citical in making sure you win close to as much as you should. For example, if you have 54 against QJ, you'll win 37% of the time hot and cold, but if you're checking and folding the flop 90% of the time, then you're obviously going to win less than 10% of the time.
- Along the same lines we need to win a lot with the worst hand without a showdown to make up for us folding too much.
- There's no solution for being out of position.
- We can't fold too much, or we're just throwing away money by calling preflop.
- All the while, we need to realize that we only invested 1 SB preflop to protect a 2.5 (or 2.4) SB pot. If we end up spewing postflop, it'll end up costing us a lot more, and it's just not worth it. The goal is to outplay our opponents postflop, while not letting them make auto-money by raising our blind.

So now that we have a bunch of goals with no real direction, I'll post some hands that I'm not sure of. I probably misplayed most of them, which is good, because there shouldn't be too many "standard. next" type posts. Critiques of misplayed hands often make for the most informative threads.

Before I start, I think it's important to mention that since we want to make money postflop, it's probably best to avoid TAG's because even though they're less likely to be unpaired (meaning we're less often a big underdog), they will make less mistakes

[NLSoldier]

my solution is that I started 3betting pretty much every hand that I defend with. having the initiative helps, ill let you guys know how it goes... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

edit-btw, so far in sept. im winning .05/100 in my sb and only losing .03/100 in my BB. I must be onto something!

<font color="white"> no need to flame, im obviously running super hot and making a joke </font>

[sthief09]

the problem with this is you're going to lose the respectability of your 3-bets, and a lot of players cap very lightly since a 3-bet in a steal situation is perceived as just a resteal.

I think you're getting carried away, but just from those few hands we played against each other a month or so ago. you were really overzealous with your stealing (stealing with Q4s and stealing/capping with K3s). it's nice to have initiative but it has its pitfalls. I also don't know how light you're going. are you saying if the button raises and you're the BB you're raising more than you're calling?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with this is you're going to lose the respectability of your 3-bets, and a lot of players cap very lightly since a 3-bet in a steal situation is perceived as just a resteal.

I think you're getting carried away, but just from those few hands we played against each other a month or so ago. you were really overzealous with your stealing (stealing with Q4s and stealing/capping with K3s). it's nice to have initiative but it has its pitfalls. I also don't know how light you're going. are you saying if the button raises and you're the BB you're raising more than you're calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, Those hands against you were definately the exception rather than the norm simply because it was against you and its always fun to try to out aggress people that you know [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I'm not exactly sure what my call to 3bet ratio is in the BB, ill try to check it tommorow when I have more time.

I am definately 3betting a ton in the sb though. Stuff like K9, QT, JT, any suited ace, any pair...im not sure if this is standard for most of you guys or not, but its relatively new for me.

In the big blind Im not neccsarily 3betting everything, but ive definately started 3betting more often than I used to. For example I used to just call with stuff like QJ or KT or A9, but now its pretty much an auto 3bet.

I have a feeling this isnt too out of line with where you and alot of other guys are at, sorry if my first post (which was mostly meant as a joke if you saw the part in white) caused confusion.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]


I am definately 3betting a ton in the sb though. Stuff like K9, QT, JT, any suited ace, any pair...im not sure if this is standard for most of you guys or not, but its relatively new for me.

In the big blind Im not neccsarily 3betting everything, but ive definately started 3betting more often than I used to. For example I used to just call with stuff like QJ or KT or A9, but now its pretty much an auto 3bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

I've recently started doing this too. I found it works pretty well, especially against alot of 16-ish pfr players who have quite high ATSB rates - they usually are tightish about raising but loosen way up in the CO/Button, and will give up pretty easy.

However, I've gotten into a bit of trouble against certain types of players - namely the 40/30s and other LAGs who will cap with like 50% of what they are stealing with. It's really hard(read: usually stupid) to call down with A8o UI after getting capped preflop, even if intellectually I recognize he may be capping light.

Also, other lags who will c/r any flop that big cards miss. It's nice to occassionally go 3bets on the flop and 1 on the turn + river when I have AA and he has KQ UI, but more often it's making me crazy when I have AT UI.

It's more important to me to recognize these players, and just flatcall the original steal with A8o intending to get to showdown since he'll bet so many postflop streets with a worse hand.

Surf

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
edit-btw, so far in sept. im winning .05/100 in my sb and only losing .03/100 in my BB. I must be onto something!

[/ QUOTE ]

you are clearly a god among men


[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
my solution is that I started 3betting pretty much every hand that I defend with. having the initiative helps, ill let you guys know how it goes... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

edit-btw, so far in sept. im winning .05/100 in my sb and only losing .03/100 in my BB. I must be onto something!

<font color="white"> no need to flame, im obviously running super hot and making a joke </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hidden joke aside, I've been meaning to try this for awhile now. Not 100% of the time I defend, but ~50% perhaps. Sthief is worried that once they catch on, they'll start capping, but they aren't going to catch on until you've done it once or twice (unless you 3-bet and end up showing down something really bad). In other words, you can probably get away with it a couple times before you have to slow down . . .

All I know is I hate hate hate it when I steal with my JTo or god knows what and I get 3-bet by the BB and miss the flop. Which I will 2/3rds of the time.

And if I hate it that much when other people do it, it must be good to do to other people. Problem is, I'm not sure what to do after I bet the flop I just missed, and they call or raise . . . bastards. Don't they know I'm representing AA?

[Trix]

Do you hate it more than when he just calls and then CR the flop ?

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you hate it more than when he just calls and then CR the flop ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a fantastic question . . . were you the guy who linked to an old thread by Nikla re blind wars (I think in that instance he asked why one should bother capping in the SB preflop after the BB 3-bets your SB open-raise, when a flop checkraise would get more respect while investing the same amount of cash)? Same point.

However, I would say that I respect a 3-bet from the big blind more than I respect a flop checkraise, at least when the flop is ragged and the guy doing it is a TAG. When someone 3-bets me from the BB I automatically put him on a strong ace or a good pocket, and am quite annoyed if I find out he had anything but. In other words, I find it annoying, but not suspicious. A flop check-raise, I find both annoying and suspicious (i.e., I might be more likely to play back).

Tough question . . .

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
. . . why one should bother capping in the SB preflop after the BB 3-bets your SB open-raise, when a flop checkraise would get more respect while investing the same amount of cash...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not just more respect - more misrepresentation too.

/mc