15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

Nightwish · #1 08-01-2004, 05:03 PM

Some stats on the two opponents:

TAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 20% of the time, raises preflop 9% of his hands, goes to showdown 39% of the time and shows the winner 52% of the time.

VeryLAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 68% of the time, raises preflop 16% of his hands, goes to showdown 40% of the time and shows the winner 36% of the time.

How do you guys like it so far? (Part 2 to follow...)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Nightwish is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Nightwish raises, 2 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 (VeryLAG) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Nightwish calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG bets, VeryLAG calls, Button folds, Nightwish calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG checks, VeryLAG bets, Nightwish raises

Steve Giufre · #2 08-01-2004, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Some stats on the two opponents:

TAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 20% of the time, raises preflop 9% of his hands, goes to showdown 39% of the time and shows the winner 52% of the time.

VeryLAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 68% of the time, raises preflop 16% of his hands, goes to showdown 40% of the time and shows the winner 36% of the time.

How do you guys like it so far? (Part 2 to follow...)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Nightwish is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Nightwish raises, 2 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 (VeryLAG) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Nightwish calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG bets, VeryLAG calls, Button folds, Nightwish calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG checks, VeryLAG bets, Nightwish raises

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont hate it. I assume LAG probably would have raised if the flop if it him. TAG probably isnt fooling around given his turn check, I woundnt be too worried about him. I guess it's more less a guessing game whether or not LAG has a K. Given the information you have on him, I think he'll be taking a stab at it enough of the time for your play to be OK. I would check call the river assuming a blank fell.

skp · #3 08-04-2004, 06:15 PM

I am now convinced that checkcalling the river on a blank is not the best move. LAG may well have called the turn raise with one pair and hoping to improve. While he will usually call the river with any crappy pair, he will fold often enough to make bluffing with AJ worthwhile (bluffing is even more correct where the river card is another high card like a Queen or a ten as the Lag with (say) a 6 will now be looking at 2 or 3 overcards out there).

skp · #4 08-04-2004, 06:18 PM

I just went to the results. I didn't know that TAG called the turn checkraise. In that spot, I don't fault Nightwish for checking the river. He should bet his Aj on teh river if up against just the LAG.

Cerril · #5 08-01-2004, 05:52 PM

I'd be somewhat concerned I'm beat if I don't improve, and slightly more concerned that I'm dominated if I do given TAG's reraise from my UTG raise. Does he not respect me/my image, or am I drawing nearly dead? It's not, at this point, that I'm even concerned about a K (though AK from TAG or Kx from LAG are certainly in the back of my mind), but that there are a lot of hands that beat me, and if VLAG sticks around he's as likely to show me one of them as TAG.

I think I agree that that raise is gutsy but that everything will be very clear from the next play. I think I'm a little overly passive and would rather fold than pay for information, but at the very least you should know what his read of you is after this round, and if you didn't going in it might be worth the price.

Noo Yawk · #6 08-02-2004, 08:13 AM

Hi Nightwish,

Stuck in the middle of a LAG and a TAG with AJ offsuit after I've been 3 bet preflop by TAG and then missed the flop completelty is not the spot I dream of being in.
I'm out on the flop and looking very forward to the next hand.

Given how you played however, I think your raise to get rid of TAG was a good one on the turn. Now you can get heads up against a possible draw.

Nightwish · #7 08-02-2004, 05:19 PM

When the TAG checked the turn, I put him on one of three groups of hands. He might have a pocket pair like JJ/TT and be worried about the K. He might have something like AQ/AJ. Or he might have AK/KK/AA and be going for a tricky check-raise because he's pretty confident that the LAG behind him will bet. I think a pocket pair is the least likely of these because I think he's smart enough to know that he needs to protect that kind of vulnerable hand. A tricky AA/KK/AK is a possibility, but it's also somewhat remote. So I figured that his most likely hand was some sort of AQ/AJ. When the LAG bet, this presented a great opportunity to get the TAG to fold a better hand and hopefully go up against the LAG's draw. This is why I raised.

Now imagine my surprise when the TAG called 2 cold! The LAG also called. And the river brings no help. Now what do I do? Do I continue this bluff or do I resign myself to the fact that one of these guys will call me no matter what?

Here's the whole hand so far.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Nightwish is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Nightwish raises, 2 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 (VeryLAG) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Nightwish calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG bets, VeryLAG calls, Button folds, Nightwish calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG checks, VeryLAG bets, Nightwish raises, TAG calls, VeryLAG calls.

River: (14.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)

Garland · #8 08-02-2004, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now what do I do? Do I continue this bluff or do I resign myself to the fact that one of these guys will call me no matter what?

[/ QUOTE ]

You came this far despite better judgment in my view. I think you have to fire that last shell. The pot is huge now and you only need to get them both to fold a very small % of the time for this to be the correct play. Obviously fold to a raise.

Garland

Franchise (TTT) · #9 08-02-2004, 09:47 PM

Calling 2 cold on the turn makes it look like the TAG was trying to checkraise the LAG before you decided to do it for him and donate 2 extra BB's.

Check and fold the river.

Nightwish · #10 08-03-2004, 05:38 PM

I checked, and it got checked around. As expected, the LAG had 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a very nice draw on the turn (if we disregard the fact that he called 3 cold with it preflop), and the TAG had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and took it down. You can't see people's faces online, but I'm sure he had a look of total surprise on his.

In retrospect, other than some weirdly played AK, this is the only hand that he could have that would make sense here. This fact, combined with the pot size, makes my river check really wrong.

Thanks for all the responses!