Another "You make the call" post

BigBaitsim (milo) · #1 10-25-2004, 02:10 PM

Actual hand from Canterbury, reconstructed to the best of my memory.

Board reads K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Seat one is EP and bets. Seat 5 raises, seat 10 folds, Seat 1 re-raises immediately in turn as the dealer scoops up his cards, which were unprotected, and places them on top of the deck. Both the dealer and the player realize this immediately. The dealer calls over the floor and explains his error, even showing that he has not moved his hand off Seat 1's cards. Seat 1 politely, but clearly with some distress, pleads for his cards to be returned. The dealer tells the floor he is certain he has the player's cards on top of the deck, and the player offers to tell the floor what they are exactly, so he can verify. Two players at the table say they saw the action by the dealer and agree. Seat 5 says shrugs, indicating he will abide by the floor without complaint.

Do you pull the cards out of the muck?

ThaSaltCracka · #2 10-25-2004, 02:15 PM

if what he tells the floor is the same as the two cards the dealer thinks are his cards, then sure why not? Seems like an honest mistake.

PseudoPserious · #3 10-25-2004, 02:25 PM

While it seems like letting him pull the cards out of the muck is the fair thing to do, I don't think the floor should allow it. I think if it's allowed, it could open up some creative player/dealer cheating possibilities.

PP

TxSteve · #4 10-25-2004, 02:30 PM

Gotta protect your cards.

Cards were mucked and are now dead.

The player will probably protect his cards from now...and will have learned his lesson.

slickpoppa · #5 10-25-2004, 02:43 PM

Allowing dealers to muck hands without justification also creates some good cheating opportunites (A and B heads up on river. A has better hand. B is friend of dealer. Dealer mucks A's cards.) A player should protect his cards, but there is no rule that he has to and thus should not be penalized for the mistake of the dealer. If it is clear that the dealer put the cards on the top of the deck, then I don't see anything wrong with keeping them in play in this situation.

steamboatin · #6 10-25-2004, 02:50 PM

It is the player's responsibility to protect his cards. It is a rule and is usually posted at the entrance to the cardroom or somewhere near the podium where you get your name on the list.

When the cars touch the muck, they are dead.

submariner · #7 10-25-2004, 02:54 PM

It seems obvious that the "right" thing to do would let the player tell the floor what cards he had, and if they match, give them back to him.

What actually should happen, however depends on
a. What the rule is in this particular casino about this particular situation,and, if the rule would go against the player, then
b. Does this particular casino have a "The floor can override a rule to make the right thing happen" policy.

jedi · #8 10-25-2004, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Allowing dealers to muck hands without justification also creates some good cheating opportunites (A and B heads up on river. A has better hand. B is friend of dealer. Dealer mucks A's cards.) A player should protect his cards, but there is no rule that he has to and thus should not be penalized for the mistake of the dealer. If it is clear that the dealer put the cards on the top of the deck, then I don't see anything wrong with keeping them in play in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer did not make a mistake. The player did. It's the player's responsibility to protect their cards at all times. Dealers are trained to pick up unprotected cards.

BigBaitsim (milo) · #9 10-25-2004, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Allowing dealers to muck hands without justification also creates some good cheating opportunites (A and B heads up on river. A has better hand. B is friend of dealer. Dealer mucks A's cards.) A player should protect his cards, but there is no rule that he has to and thus should not be penalized for the mistake of the dealer. If it is clear that the dealer put the cards on the top of the deck, then I don't see anything wrong with keeping them in play in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer did not make a mistake. The player did. It's the player's responsibility to protect their cards at all times. Dealers are trained to pick up unprotected cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they both made a mistake, but agree with the floor. Rules are in place for a reason, to protect the integrity of the game. The floor made a decision that was in the spirit of that integrity, ignoring the nitpickers who would argue "rules are rules" without understanding why rules are there in the first place.

jedi · #10 10-25-2004, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think they both made a mistake, but agree with the floor. Rules are in place for a reason, to protect the integrity of the game. The floor made a decision that was in the spirit of that integrity, ignoring the nitpickers who would argue "rules are rules" without understanding why rules are there in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Within the spirit of the game, the floor made a good decision, but if the decision had gone the other way, the floorman would have been right as well. As a player, you don't want to even consider that the floorman MIGHT rule against you here. Protect your cards.