Q9s, big pot, how would you play this flop?

AaronS · #1 10-18-2005, 10:54 PM

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

I've played about 2 loops at the table, opponents all seem loose

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

too loose a flop call with 1 limper, the raiser, and 3 cold-callers?

Flop: (16.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Obviously have to at least call here, getting about 19:1 with a gutter and backdoor flush draw... Raise to get a free card/pick up some outs? (admittedly queens might not be outs here) Just call?

Turn: (12.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Anyone bet here with the double gutter?

River: (12.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

any other comments?

Final Pot: 12.25 BB.

bobhalford · #2 10-19-2005, 12:34 AM

Maybe I'm nute but I would never cold call a preflop raise with a Q in my hand, much less Q9s. I fold KQs here too.

olavfo · #3 10-19-2005, 10:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold KQs here too.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a mistake. KQs plays very well multiway.

bobhalford · #4 10-19-2005, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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I fold KQs here too.

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That's a mistake. KQs plays very well multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess KQs could be played here. I just don't like it cause you are dominated by AQ, AK, KK, AA. I fold it (perhaps incorrectly) because I know that if I flop a K or Q it could get expensive, and I'm really only calling to make a flush or straight, and KQs doesn't have as many straight possibilities as say JT. Plus you can get hammered by a higher flush. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are reverse implied odds in effect. But Q9s has a lot worse reverse implied odds, though the fact that the pot is so big might negate those and it might be a decent call. Unfortunately I don't find too many of these games where there is a raise pf and several cold callers. I ran into this problem in Atlantic City last week where I felt I was playing too tight and folding a lot of hands preflop to raises that I thought I might be able to call with because of the implied odds. I think maybe 98s or somesuch hand might be even better than Q9 because the other cold callers are likely to have face cards.

Harv72b · #5 10-19-2005, 12:49 AM

Folding any suited connector (including 2-gappers) here would be a mistake. Hero has position on the PFR and a ton of players involved in the pot (and you can pretty much guarantee that BB will come along); the immediate odds are too great to pass up, let alone the implied ones.

I like flat calling the flop. If you hit your gutter you'll be holding the nuts, and with the pot this big you're not chasing anyone who flopped a pair (i.e., QJ) out with a raise. So I don't think you buy any additional outs (even T7 would still be correct to call 2), and I'm frankly shocked that you got even 1 free card out of the raise, let alone 2.

habsfanca11 · #6 10-19-2005, 07:19 PM

Can we get a consensus here? Two respected posters have come out on opposite ends. JT says fold pre-flop and Harv says call. What's a lurker to do?

Harv72b · #7 10-19-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can we get a consensus here? Two respected posters have come out on opposite ends. JT says fold pre-flop and Harv says call. What's a lurker to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

When in doubt, go with Joe Tall. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

habsfanca11 · #8 10-19-2005, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can we get a consensus here? Two respected posters have come out on opposite ends. JT says fold pre-flop and Harv says call. What's a lurker to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

When in doubt, go with Joe Tall. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this then - at 2/4 in a loosey goosey game this is OK, but table conditions must be just right. As you move up you'll want to fold this though. Yes? And thanks to previous poster for suggesting.

matt hooley · #9 10-19-2005, 09:44 AM

fold PF, every time.
on the flop I just call. your draw is to a very strong hand that can win many times though you are multi-way. raising will just knock out players that may find a second best hand to call the turn or river with in such a big pot. I don't really see a flop raise for value

@bsolute_luck · #10 10-19-2005, 10:01 AM

preflop: fine
flop: just call. your draw isn't that strong and you risk getting 3-bet by a better hand that you're calling to at least the turn anyways making this an expensive flop for such a weak hand.

turn: no don't bet. you're not getting a J, TT-99 to fold (at least i don't think you would).