Calling 3-4x BB raises with position

Brad F. · #1 09-01-2005, 11:40 AM

This is a theory question, as I am trying to figure out this part of my game.

Last night, I have $27 dollars at a .10/.25 table on Stars. UTG has $34 dollars and raises to $1.

Villian I have very few stats on, a 29% VPIP in about 110 hands against him.

MP1 calls, and I call on the button with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Blinds fold.

Flop ($3.35): K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, MP1 checks, I check.

Turn ($3.35): 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG bets $2, MP1 folds, I raise to $4.75, UTG reraises to $8, I reraise to $15, and he pushes, I call.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Villian has A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I take down a very nice large pot.

I've been doing this a decent amount lately, so I pull up my pokertracker to lookm at 10-8o on the button and out of 435 times seeing it on the button, I VPIP 201 times and it is a huge EV hand for me, making 3.5 BB/VPIP (this is before importing the session which included the hand in question).

I only raised with it once, so I'm assuming that I'm calling with it when there is a raise before I am to act.

So my question is this: Is this just a small sample size for which I am getting lucky? Do I need to only do this against specific opponents? It seems like people misplay AK, AQ and big pairs enough in this spot to make it +EV.

The villian in this hand obviously berated me for a good 15 minutes after the loss (with no merit, the check on the turn was pretty bad, but I see he was hoping one of us would be with a king).

It just made me wonder if this kind of positional call is standard, risky, and overall + or - EV.

Comments?

Brad

TheWorstPlayer · #2 09-01-2005, 11:44 AM

T8o isn't really profitable to call a raise with unless the stacks are very deep and/or the opponents are very bad. Here, for instance, he should have easily priced you out of your marginal draw on the flop and he also should have not paid you off on the turn. In general, it is too loose a call. Make it T8s, and close to 200bb stacks, and it is an easy call. Make it T9s and 100+bb stacks and I think it's a good call, too. You just want to make sure that it is a hand that will have a good chance at flopping a good draw. T8o doesn't really flop that many good draws.

Voltron87 · #3 09-01-2005, 11:48 AM

you did not play this well. you gave him waaaaaaaaay too many spots to fold on the turn, althought this is 25nl.

you got very lucky. dont do this at 25nl.

maybedinero · #4 09-01-2005, 12:01 PM

I don't agree with this at all, Voltron. Very rarely is a reraiser going to fold to a re-reraise in my <=25NL experience. And I think the 4.75 is a nice amount too. Nicely built-up pot.

maybedinero · #5 09-01-2005, 12:04 PM

I disagree with the preflop recommendations here too. At this level (v. good implied odds with a straight vs TPTK or better), long as the blinds don't have PFR > 8% and there aren't any real bullies on the table I call OTB (and CO if button is tight) with any one-gapper 64 or greater. Normally you'll miss, but when you hit you REALLY HIT.

vulturesrow · #6 09-01-2005, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with the preflop recommendations here too. At this level (v. good implied odds with a straight vs TPTK or better), long as the blinds don't have PFR > 8% and there aren't any real bullies on the table I call OTB (and CO if button is tight) with any one-gapper 64 or greater. Normally you'll miss, but when you hit you REALLY HIT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without having seen anyone else stats in this forum, Id be willing to say I am close to the leader in the amount of these implied odds hands played, and Ive even taken some dings for it in hands Ive posted (mostly for playing them OOP), but even I am cringing at this one. I understand your argument but this one is just the wrong scenario.

Voltron87 · #7 09-01-2005, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this at all, Voltron. Very rarely is a reraiser going to fold to a re-reraise in my <=25NL experience. And I think the 4.75 is a nice amount too. Nicely built-up pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, my advice may not be applicable to 25nl, but at any other level, you might as well type into the chatbox "I HAVE WAY MORE THAN ONE PAIR AND IM NOT FOLDING!!!!"

Brad F. · #8 09-01-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this at all, Voltron. Very rarely is a reraiser going to fold to a re-reraise in my <=25NL experience. And I think the 4.75 is a nice amount too. Nicely built-up pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, my advice may not be applicable to 25nl, but at any other level, you might as well type into the chatbox "I HAVE WAY MORE THAN ONE PAIR AND IM NOT FOLDING!!!!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I vote you are right just based on your Avatar. Why the rockies traded him for nothing is completely beyond me....

Brad

yvesaint · #9 09-01-2005, 11:51 AM

T8o isn't going to win many pots, multi-way or short-handed, period. Suited, it's much better, make it 98s, and it's a great hand. Double your stacks, and I'll call this every day of the week.

vulturesrow · #10 09-01-2005, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It just made me wonder if this kind of positional call is standard, risky, and overall + or - EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this hand, as TWP said, not so good. Suited connectors and small pocket pairs are sort of the "standard" if you will, to include raising with them at times. You need to do this to win big pots at NL but T8o is rather thin call even with position.