just don't get it

[Sobolous]

5-10 NL on UB recently.

having played a while, i and villian are both at about 2k. UTG + 2, i get
9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]call
villian calls along with button, 5 players to flop:

8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]j [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]q: [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checks to villian who moves all in for over 2k into a $50 pot! obviously instacall to see him turn over

a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he added insult to injury by adding a k to his low [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the turn.

i am now simply venting after beginning the post wondering if he had some sort of deep poker insight i wasn't privvy to. i am just amazed by someone who seemed to be saavy making such an unbelievably bad play and getting paid off.

[radioheadfan]

You have to give him credit for a set or some sort of monster draw that point. Meaning that you know you're gambling a huge amount when you call even though you have the nuts.

Turns out he had the double gutshot and flush draw so with his 14 outs he was actually the favorite to win/chop (notice 2 of his outs chop with you). He had the best possible draw against you.

I'm never very eager to toss a coin for 2K. It could have been even worse if he had the 9T of clubs to freeroll on you.

If I know villian to be a capable and thinking player, I lay down the nuts in that situation (have done it many times in Omaha). I lay down not because I fear the pure nuts, 9/T of clubs, but rather because I fear I may be up against a hand I'm flipping a coin with. Lose the money you limped in with and keep playing.

Also, and this deserves mentioning, if you know your opponent is multi-tabling and suspect he might have mistakingly bet the 2000 into the wrong table, then you can more comfortably call this bet. But without the chance that he misclick or bet by accident, I'm folding.

Hope this helps, and sorry you ended on the wrong side of the coin toss.

[Chaostracize]

If you are folding the nuts you should move down in limits.

[someguy123]

well if he is either a 50/50 or up against the pure nuts whats wrong with folding ?

I wouldnt like to be up against anyone of these, but with villians action these hands make more sense than a set.

ATc
KTc
T9c

[Sobolous]

thoughtful post from radio head, i thought he had AK clubs. but a bet like that, showing little rationality pot-wise, makes me think he isnt analyzing it as smoothly as you are. he was all-in within 5 seconds. why isn't he considering the chance that someone has hit a set?

[Chaostracize]

Because he will be up against hands that aren't that much, much, much more often.

There was a post like this a while back. The difference (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the all-in bet came from in position when already faced with a bet from the person holding the nuts. But even then, there wasn't much of an argument.

You are thinking of exactly what this person held and not the range. 12 outs to win and 2 to chop does not make the AT hand a favorite, fyi.

[someguy123]

[ QUOTE ]

You are thinking of exactly what this person held and not the range. 12 outs to win and 2 to chop does not make the AT hand a favorite, fyi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ofcourse i didnt mean ATc was a favorite but calling that bet i wouldnt like villian to have it.

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
well if he is either a 50/50 or up against the pure nuts whats wrong with folding ?

[/ QUOTE ]

you guys are dumb. Not everyoen plays poker like you. For all you know, he has top pair, two pair, and is hoping a "sucker" calls with top pair worse kicker. Some people make a hand (like top pair) and don't want to lose the pot to a flush draw or straight draw. Don't automatically assume your opponents ONLY make this play with the nuts and they are freerolling. Anyone even marginally consider folding (unless you are playing out of your bankroll), should seriously step down in the limits.

One time the flop was unraised in a 7way pot. Some guy held A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop was 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and he led the flop for 3x pot size (and was raped by a flopped flush)

[someguy123]

Ty for calling me dumb. jackass.

[Chaostracize]

And fwiw, the comparison with Omaha is abysmal. If you held naked T9 against opponents AcTcQQ, then yes, you are a dog, but the is extreme. This is not Omaha. When you have the nuts in Hold 'Em and someone auto pushes, you are calling. End of story.