$.25/.50 Did I have the odds to call straight draw?

Benoit · #1 10-21-2005, 11:39 PM

I called the raise preflop since I was last to act and getting 9 to 1 by calling.

On the flop I was ready to fold because of the bet and raise because I knew most likely UTG+1 was going to re-raise after my call, so I was actually calling at least 3 bets. But by the time it got to me the pot was so large that I was spending the eventual 3 bets to win the total pot this round of at least 17 bets (after UTG+1's 3 bet and the other two fold). And I had the feeling that MP1 was only going to call rather then fold or 4 bet it).

The 3 to the flush on the river scared me, but I had no info to say someone hit, so I just bet with the intention of calling a raise.

So what do you guys think, was I too loose in my calls?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls $0.25 (All-In).

River: (18.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

numeri · #2 10-21-2005, 11:43 PM

Preflop is a bit loose.

1. On the flop, how many outs do you have?
2. What odds do you need from the pot?
3. What are your immediate odds offered by the pot?
4. If you knew UTG+1 would 3-bet and MP1 and MP2 would call, what odds would the pot be offering you then the first time around?

You need to be able to answer these questions quickly. With practice, you will.

Benoit · #3 10-21-2005, 11:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is a bit loose.

1. On the flop, how many outs do you have?
2. What odds do you need from the pot?
3. What are your immediate odds offered by the pot?
4. If you knew UTG+1 would 3-bet and MP1 and MP2 would call, what odds would the pot be offering you then the first time around?

You need to be able to answer these questions quickly. With practice, you will.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I know those things already, I had it figured out as the hand was playing out.

I know I'm sometimes too loose and aggressive sometimes, but how is calling a 2 bet wrong from the BB when my call closed the action?

edit: I knew with the eventual 3 bet call on the flop I was getting at least 4 to 1 on my money. Probably over 5 to 1 if you include implied odds since this table was very loose. I figured that would be good enough since I had an open ended straight draw.

#4 10-22-2005, 12:10 AM

If the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] that's not the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , what's your plan?

milesdyson · #5 10-22-2005, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] that's not the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , what's your plan?

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't see why this matters.

to the op - nice hand

Augster · #6 10-22-2005, 12:36 AM

The only thing I'd have done differently is I'd have 3-bet the flop.

Preflop, it's 9:1 to you with "absolute position", a little loose, but I'll make that call too.

OESD with a rainbow flop and callers and raisers? I'm pushing my draw on the flop.

Turn C/R is great.

Great bet on the end. If they sucked out a backdoor flush draw with that much action, so be it.

The only thing I'd have been scared of was the board pairing. It didn't. If it had on the end, I'd have probably checked/called.

NH.

Rev. Good Will · #7 10-22-2005, 12:36 AM

PF still iffy 9:1

other than that, ni han

Benoit · #8 10-22-2005, 12:57 PM

cool okay thanks guys.

But so what's with a few people saying my PF call was loose? I could have sworn heads up calling a two bet in the BB is 3 to 1 and at least even money if the raiser has a wide enough range of hands to raise with. So with 4 players already calling and me closing the action by calling 1 bet for 9 in the pot, how is that loose? Sorry maybe I didn't make it clear that this table was loose, so a raise does not mean a large pocket pair, it could also be Ax or Kx.

Here are the results:
Hero has 7s 9d (straight, jack high).
UTG+1 has Tc Ac (one pair, tens).
MP2 has Qh Ks (high card, king).
Outcome: Hero wins 20.50 BB.

bozlax · #9 10-22-2005, 04:27 PM

Even at a loose table, a UTG or UTG+1 raise indicates a certain level of hand strength. Not to mention that the fact that the TABLE is loose doesn't tell us anything about the RAISER (lots of TAGs play at loose tables). So, even at 9:1, in the absence of other information, playing an offsuited one-gapper with no high-card value is a touch loose.

Benoit · #10 10-22-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even at a loose table, a UTG or UTG+1 raise indicates a certain level of hand strength. Not to mention that the fact that the TABLE is loose doesn't tell us anything about the RAISER (lots of TAGs play at loose tables). So, even at 9:1, in the absence of other information, playing an offsuited one-gapper with no high-card value is a touch loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with 9 to 1 pot odds, don't I just need a 10% or better chance to win to make this a good call? Sorry I haven't looked but I would imagine that with 5 players, even if one player had AA and the others had combinations of things like Ax and QJ, that I would still have at least a 10% chance plus added implied odds for if I hit against the loose callers.

I'm actually not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just curious about calling a 2 bet from the BB in other situations as well as I normally call them. Like if I'm heads up with the SB who two bet PF, I will normally call because even if I am behind I'm getting 3 to 1 on my money, so I just need a 25% chance to win to break even.

Have I been going at this the wrong way? Seriously, please enlighten me.