questions for bossjj

[coolhandluke]

Hey boss,
I've enjoyed reading your posts, and I really enjoy studying different theologies, I've had a hard time finding a knowledgeable person of your faith to talk to, so I was wondering if you would answer a few questions for me. i'm not trying to start a debate, or argument, just curious.

if you don't mind,

first off,

what are the implications of going some 1935 years with no temple, and no sacrifices?

if the temple could be rebuilt, would it? under what conditions?

[BluffTHIS!]

Why not just repost this in the new "Why Jews Reject Jesus" thread.

[coolhandluke]

I didn't want to hijack that thread, I hope he will answer.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey boss,
I've enjoyed reading your posts, and I really enjoy studying different theologies, I've had a hard time finding a knowledgeable person of your faith to talk to, so I was wondering if you would answer a few questions for me. i'm not trying to start a debate, or argument, just curious.

if you don't mind,

first off,

what are the implications of going some 1935 years with no temple, and no sacrifices?

if the temple could be rebuilt, would it? under what conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jews are meant to complete as many mitzvahs as they are capabale of completing. They cannot make sacrifices without the temple. With regard to the temple being rebuilt, here is something i posted in another thread when bluffthis asked this same question,

"taken from a website that i believe accurately answers your question:

"Standing today in what Jews believe is the historical location of the first two temples, is the Dome of the Rock, a Muslim shrine. The Al-Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest site in Islam, is located just to its south. To recognize the Dome of the Rock as the only possible rebuilt Temple, or to seriously attempt to tear it down to replace it, both constitute seemingly unresolvable religious and political problems. Nonetheless, the idea of rebuilding some Temple somewhere is difficult to abandon entirely:

For the last 1900 years, Jews have prayed that God would allow for the rebuilding of the Temple. This prayer is a formal part of the thrice daily Jewish prayer services.

However, not all rabbis agree on what would happen in a rebuilt Temple. It has traditionally been assumed that some sort of animal sacrifices would be reinstituted, in accord with the rules in Leviticus and the Talmud. However there is another opinion, beginning with Maimonides, that God deliberately has moved Jews away from sacrifices towards prayer, as prayer is a higher form of worship. Thus, some rabbis hold that sacrifices would not take place in a rebuilt Temple. Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, the first chief rabbi of the Jewish community in pre-state Israel, holds that sacrifices will not be reinstituted.

A few, very small, Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. Most religious Jews feel that the Temple should only be rebuilt in the messianic era, and that it would presumptuous of people to force God's hand, as it were. Furthermore, there are many ritual impurity constrictions that are difficult to resolve, making the building's construction a practical impossibility.

Additionally, many Jews are against rebuilding the Temple due to the enormously hostile reaction from all Arab and Muslim nations that would likely result— even were the building to be complementary to those holy to Islam, there would be high suspicion that such a building project would ultimately end with the destruction of these and the rebuilding of the Temple on its original spot.

Some fundamentalist and evangelical Christian groups, especially those who follow a dispensationalist theology, believe that the Jewish people will build the Third Temple shortly before, or perhaps after, "true" Christians have been raptured." "

[coolhandluke]

great info, thanks.

[bossJJ]

This was discussed somewhat in this thread.

I've also addressed the issue in the first Why do Jews Reject Jesus? thread.

Briefly, when the Temple was standing, it was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. According to the Hebrew bible, prayer, repentence and charity also atone for sin. There are several examples and in the bible of people who had their sins atoned for without bringing a blood sacrifice. I discussed all this in a lot of detail and quoted many bible verses in the first "Why do Jews Reject Jesus?" thread.

It is forbidden to bring sacrifices anywhere except the Temple, so that is why we don't bring them nowadays. The bible says that the Temple will be rebuilt when the messiah comes.

[BluffTHIS!]

OK, if we're going to have a separate thread going, let's make this the atonement thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Briefly, when the Temple was standing, it was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. According to the Hebrew bible, prayer, repentence and charity also atone for sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I note that you use the adjective "unintentional". Why?

[bossJJ]

He didn't repost there, so I figured I would just answer in this thread.

I answered your question in the other thread, which is where I first saw it. You are repeating a lot of questions which I already answered in the older threads.

[coolhandluke]

thanks for the answer boss,
I just found this area, so let me read through those threads, and get up to speed, I might have more questions later.

[bossJJ]

Repeat post:

King David, and the people of Ninevah, are two more examples of those whose sins were forgiven without a blood sacrifice. This link also discusses this:
www.outreachjudaism.org/response.html

Here's just a few examples from the article:
"Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 17:11,13 and Numbers 31:50 are examples in the Torah where atonement is procured without the shedding of blood. In Leviticus 5:11-13 the poor man may give a flour offering instead of an animal sacrifice for an atonement. Numbers 17:11-12 describes how Aaron made an atonement for the people with incense, and in Numbers 31:50 the Torah declares that the golden ornaments donated by high officers of the military who successfully defeated the Midianites were offered as an atonement as well."

Here are a few more verses:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said,‘Has the LORD as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifice as in obedience to the voice of the LORD? Surely, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.

Proverbs 16:6 By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one avoids evil.

Psalms 51:16-17 For you desire not sacrifice else I would give it. The sacrifice of God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Isaiah 1:11-18 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats...Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says the Lord, `Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey..."

Psalms 69:30-31 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This pleases the LORD better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs.

When the Temple was standing, a blood sacrifice was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. A poor man could give a grain offering instead, and this and tons of other bible verses demonstrate that a blood sacrifice was not required. As the bible says, the blood sacrifice was only for unintentional sins, not all sins. Also, as discussed in this link below (which I already posted), only certain types of animals could be sacrificed, and human sacrifice was forbidden.
www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath.html

There is no vicarious atonement in the bible. That is, each person had to repent for his own sins. The sacrifice of one person didn't atone for anybody else's sins. So jesus' alleged sacrifice was not an acceptable sacrifice in any way.

When the ancient Israelites sinned, the message of the prophets was always, "repent, return to God..." as that is was He desires when we sin. Their message was NOT "you need to bring a sacrifice in order to be forgiven."

Long before the Temple was destroyed, the prophets predicted that it would be destroyed and that the Jews would be without it for a long time, until it is rebuilt when the real messiah comes. They said that without the Temple, prayer and repentence would atone for sin:

Hosea 14:2-3 "Take words with you, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips.”

As the article discusses, the prophets (after predicting that the Temple will be destroyed) never say that the messiah will replace the sacrifices or that believing in some dead man will atone for sin. Those christian beliefs are from paganism, not the bible. Do a searh on "Mythra". Christianity is essentially the cult of Mythra with a new name.