KK turns ugly.

Larimani · #1 12-21-2005, 11:15 AM

Villain is LAG (48/17/3) - not a great player, but not too bad for 50NL

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($89.10)
BB ($57.95)
UTG ($56.32)
MP ($51)
Hero ($89.80)
Button ($95.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $3, 3 folds.

Flop: ($6.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $6, UTG calls $6.

Turn: ($18.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Kcova20000 checks.
Hero bets $17, Kcova20000 raises $34, Hero...?

easy fold right?

4_2_it · #2 12-21-2005, 11:18 AM

Would you fold A9 here? Your hand isn't that much better.......

GrunchCan · #3 12-21-2005, 11:30 AM

That's an excellent perspective many people don't see hands like this from.

Larimani · #4 12-21-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's an excellent perspective many people don't see hands like this from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please explain why... I can't see it. Are you saying that KK here is same as QQ or JJ or TT or even A9? and why?

4_2_it · #5 12-21-2005, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's an excellent perspective many people don't see hands like this from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please explain why... I can't see it. Are you saying that KK here is same as QQ or JJ or TT or even A9? and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Villain is telling you he can crush A9. Well what hands in villain's range that crush A9 are you beating with KK? Unless you have a read that villain overplays top pair hands (which is probably the note he now has on you), then a fold is your only option here.

TPTK hands are solid hands, but I am very hesitant to throw my stack in with them after the flop. Pre-flop with KK I am never folding, post-flop you have to be able to get away from them, especially after you have told villain your holding and he has responded that he doesn't care.

People bluff a lot less frequently then you think at these levels. Their biggest mistake is thinking their hand is stronger than it really is, but that is not the same thing as a bluff.

Larimani · #6 12-21-2005, 02:21 PM

I see what you mean... & agree.

But could he not have TT, JJ or QQ with a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? His line is consistent with that... (sort of)

Also, What would you do here if one of you Kings was [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ?

GrunchCan · #7 12-21-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you please explain why... I can't see it. Are you saying that KK here is same as QQ or JJ or TT or even A9? and why? -

[/ QUOTE ]

(While I was at lunch 42 answered this question better than I could have, so I'll just add...)

Basically, yes. But with qualifications...

KK is a good hand, but it's never the nuts unless it improves. People often play AA and KK like they are invulnerable by slowplaying, building huge pots and setting big traps, but often when they do this they end up getting stacked. Why? Becasue unimproved KK is just one-pair.

If you have 20k+ hands in PT, take a look at your stats. How often does 1-pair win? You may be surprised to see that one-pair only wins about 33% of the time.

KK is a great one-pair hand, no doubt about it. It will beat the tar out of many hands that your opponents might be inclined to overvalue, like QQ or AK. But it's still just one-pair. Sometimes it's right to back up KK with your whole stack. But often it's not. Don't ever let yourself start thinking, "Damnit, KK is a great hand, and I'm going to win this pot with it, and I don't care that my opponent just minraised a brick."

The fact that KK is just one-pair is easier to keep in perspective if you ask yourself how you would feel about your hand if it was A9o. KK is better than A9, sure. But they're both one pair.

(Edited for clarity & grammmatic stupidity)

Larimani · #8 12-21-2005, 03:21 PM

You're right... I find it harder to drop KK on a low flop than drop 2 bottom pairs...

ajmargarine · #9 12-21-2005, 02:24 PM

How 'bout a preflop raise?

Larimani · #10 12-21-2005, 02:29 PM

raising is what I do 90% of the time in that spot... Was trying to mix up my play a bit.

I'm more interested about the turn play here... anyone check-folds?