QQ - do i have to call this down?

rivered_again · #1 11-11-2005, 02:17 PM

Villain sat down a few hands ago, so I had to assume that capping preflop meant a premium hand like AA-TT, AK-AQs, so as a default read that's what I went with. I had a few more hands on the BB, and he was quite fishy. His cold call screamed ace rag to me. Fish simply cannot get away from ace rag.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

This flop said to me that I was WAY behind. Any of the aforementioned hands that I put the 2 opponents on had me severely beaten and I was drawing to at most 6 outs (4 kings for a straight, or 2 queens (if they don't have AA, and nobody has a king)) to as little as 3 outs (3 non-club kings). The turn was a blank and it looked hopeless, so I folded because the pot wasn't that big.

Is there any reason to call down?

milesdyson · #2 11-11-2005, 02:23 PM

against AA you have 4 outs. againts AK you have 3 outs. against KK you have 2 outs.

looks good

sean c · #3 11-11-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
against AA you have 4 outs. againts AK you have 3 outs. against KK you have 2 outs.

looks good

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice hand.

#4 11-11-2005, 03:24 PM

Miles...

What do you think about raising the flop on this one?

I like it because it really lets you know where you are. If you get 3-bet you may want to throw it away there or even peel and then fold the turn to a bet. What it really does is puts the default agression in your hands, which callign the flop does not. If you get more aggression back you can be pretty sure that your beat.

Thoughts?

Margon

milesdyson · #5 11-11-2005, 03:29 PM

if we raise the flop and he just calls, we have to bet the turn and river and pray he folds KK. is this the plan?

and wtf is with saying we could consider folding to a flop 3-bet if we raise?

for me, his preflop cap has "defined his hand" enough already, to the point where i do not want to raise to "define" it more because i will have to call a reraise, and i may be stuck forced to call a turn bet.

#6 11-11-2005, 06:38 PM

Ok....

I understand where your going, the discussion is worthwhile though, I learned something here today.

So, on the flop you have to assume that your behind, based on the read (this would be different if it was a maniac, but this is not the case here). Raising on the flop then does nothing for you, but may force you into calling the turn for odds, especially if you get 3-bet.

You have 3.5 outs, which is enough in this case to call the flop, but once this hand got to the turn it was a fold....get that.

The reason I was thinking about the raise was a little Lee Jones'ish basically saying, you MAY NOT be sure that your behind now, it could have been a continuation, but if you raise and are 3-bet, you KNOW, and thereby you can let it go then and there. The thinking being get out of the hand for 1 more small bet, rather than call the flop, and turn, ending up at 3 small bets get to the river.

Now I see the correct play here is to call the flop bet, and then fold the turn, costing one small bet on a 3.5 outer.

Margon <-- not a troll, just really bad at poker, even though I have played 100,000 hands.

#7 11-11-2005, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
against AA you have 4 outs. againts AK you have 3 outs. against KK you have 2 outs.

looks good

[/ QUOTE ]

In addition, counting these outs as whole outs would be a mistake. The fold looks even better.

Can someone PokerStove this hand. I'd be pretty surprised if the the flop call wasn't -EV.

deception5 · #8 11-11-2005, 02:28 PM

This looks fine since you're pretty much behind everything in his range. Your Q outs are no good against AK/KK/AA and your K outs may result in a split (or even a loss against AcQc).

If he turns out to be a donk later you can always adjust your play against him.

Vex · #9 11-11-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Is there any reason to call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're asking the wrong question.

You were the man in the middle on the flop and just cold-called. Here, you need to raise to turn up the heat and get some information.

The villain is simply bound to bet the flop because of the preflop action. His bet gives you no additional information. Then, you call, which IMO is worse than both folding and raising here. Why? Because you're giving the guy behind you better odds to come along, and you already know that you're not strong enough for that. If he calls behind, then you don't have any more information about what he might be holding. So, you're sitting there with what started out as a premium hand. By just flatcalling the flop bet, you don't have a clue about whether you're ahead or behind.

So, you put him on a strong hand because of the preflop action and figure you're up against a strong ace or a flopped set. That's fine. But, reads are only part of the thought process. Also, reads need to be refined as the hand progresses. Do you think he's strong? Test him with a raise. It's not a waste of money. Without that knowledge, it's easy to assume the worst and fold the turn. It's worth the cost of a sb to raise up the flop and have a better idea about where you stand.

sean c · #10 11-11-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Is there any reason to call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're asking the wrong question.

You were the man in the middle on the flop and just cold-called. Here, you need to raise to turn up the heat and get some information.

The villain is simply bound to bet the flop because of the preflop action. His bet gives you no additional information. Then, you call, which IMO is worse than both folding and raising here. Why? Because you're giving the guy behind you better odds to come along, and you already know that you're not strong enough for that. If he calls behind, then you don't have any more information about what he might be holding. So, you're sitting there with what started out as a premium hand. By just flatcalling the flop bet, you don't have a clue about whether you're ahead or behind.

So, you put him on a strong hand because of the preflop action and figure you're up against a strong ace or a flopped set. That's fine. But, reads are only part of the thought process. Also, reads need to be refined as the hand progresses. Do you think he's strong? Test him with a raise. It's not a waste of money. Without that knowledge, it's easy to assume the worst and fold the turn. It's worth the cost of a sb to raise up the flop and have a better idea about where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Vex give me a capping range for an unknown player and look at how many of those hands we would be ahead of maybe 99 or 88 if you want to give him a huge capping range. Hero calls the flop because he has the odds to draw at his gut shot and folds the turn because he doesn't.