PLO8 $200 hand

[Wintermute]

Played this hand against a poster here (we both know who each other's screenames, FWIW). He's a 25/7, I'm a 35/12. I believe he misplayed the hand, but I'm not at all sure of that... want to see what others think.

$200 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: marley25 ( $530.49 )
Seat 6: Banbury_Boy ( $255.50 )
Seat 7: Hero ( $614.26 )
Seat 9: Bunny_HopHop ( $158 )
Seat 10: bongo6832 ( $419.89 )
Seat 8: Poster ( $200 )
Seat 4: lavaman11 ( $45.70 )
Seat 2: CLOWNG0D ( $227.30 )
Seat 3: wazwaz ( $123.75 )
Seat 5: tricky1010 ( $200 )
CLOWNG0D posts small blind [$1].
wazwaz posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah 6c Jh Ac ]
(Dealt to Poster [ 2s, Ad, 9s, 5s ])

lavaman11 folds.
tricky1010 folds.
Banbury_Boy folds.
Hero calls [$2].
Poster raises [$9].
bongo6832 calls [$9].
marley25 calls [$9].
CLOWNG0D folds.
wazwaz folds.
Hero raises [$46].
Poster calls [$39].
bongo6832 calls [$39].
marley25 folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 9c, Js ]

Hero bets [$153].
Poster is all-In [$152]
bongo6832 folds.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm limping preflop if I'm Poster. And I'm folding the flop.

[Wintermute]

I should've mentioned that one pertinent fact is that the 2dimes analysis for this call is:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing As Js 9c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 6c Ah Jh 504 574 246 0 0 0 0 0.657
9s 5s 2s Ad 246 246 574 0 144 0 0 0.343

So, his call was mathematically correct given these hands. It's still a bad play IMO.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I should've mentioned that one pertinent fact is that the 2dimes analysis for this call is:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing As Js 9c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 6c Ah Jh 504 574 246 0 0 0 0 0.657
9s 5s 2s Ad 246 246 574 0 144 0 0 0.343

So, his call was mathematically correct given these hands. It's still a bad play IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, it's a terrible play. Because at best he has 35%, if you had a better low draw or a higher flush draw he was screwed. But he KNEW you had AA 100%. Considering the range of hands you could have (all of which have AA in), being at best 35% is -EV

[Cooker]

As a general rule, I don't want to raise this hand preflop as the poster did. He has only a dry A2 with a crummy flush draw although some counterfit protection. I bet this hand doesn't do all that great against a random hand, although he could be trying some kind of isolation raise against a player he knows is often very aggressive and a little loose. Also, at 35/12 a limp from EP should probably set off warning bells about a big hand and not be read as weakness. I would like to hit a very favorable flop before I put in much money with A259.

I could even fold to the reraise preflop. You know hero is going to move you in on almost any flop and you are mostly hoping to hit a low draw and pray you don't get quartered. You also know hero probably has AA and probably even has a low card as well. This puts you in potentially the worst situation possible preflop.

Even on the flop you only have a backdoor low draw with a possible flush draw (you should know your 2 pair is no good since no one reraises without AA). Your flush draw could easily be no good as well.

This might be results oriented since I know the hands, but those are my thoughts. However, if poster limps preflop and no one raises then things might go very badly as well when he flops 2 pair, but he might be able to fold a big field realizing that sets, nice flush draws, and straight draws have him in terrible shape.

In general, a dry A2 is much better in limit where big bets rarely force out people with trashy low and low draws. Even when quartered you can frequently still be profitting. At PLO8 I think it is more important to have a little something both ways than a really nice one way hand.

Given that you posted the hand, I am sure the poster rivered a flush and scooped.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
As a general rule, I don't want to raise this hand preflop as the poster did. He has only a dry A2 with a crummy flush draw although some counterfit protection.

[/ QUOTE ]
A25 is a monster. His PFR is fine.

[ QUOTE ]
I bet this hand doesn't do all that great against a random hand, although he could be trying some kind of isolation raise against a player he knows is often very aggressive and a little loose.


[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how it stacks up against a random hand, unless we're getting all-in preflop. A25 is going to be generally very bettable postflop. Many hands that are a favorite to A259 preflop will have to fold to betting pressure from it postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, at 35/12 a limp from EP should probably set off warning bells about a big hand and not be read as weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? An EP limp suggests some strength, but you don't get to VPIP 35 by only playing monsters from UTG.

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to hit a very favorable flop before I put in much money with A259.

I could even fold to the reraise preflop. You know hero is going to move you in on almost any flop and you are mostly hoping to hit a low draw and pray you don't get quartered. You also know hero probably has AA and probably even has a low card as well. This puts you in potentially the worst situation possible preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Some parts I agree, some I don't. I think the preflop call of the reraise is correct. A25 is very bettable postflop, as I mentioned before. He's in position on me as well. I'm sure he doesn't like his situation, but I think he has to call the raise PF.

[ QUOTE ]

Even on the flop you only have a backdoor low draw with a possible flush draw (you should know your 2 pair is no good since no one reraises without AA).

[/ QUOTE ]
He probably knows that his two pair leads some very small fraction of the time (I might also repot preflop w/ A23 and perhaps lead at this flop, for example). And I do reraise w/ hands other than AA, but very rarely. Still, I agree that he probably did not have much faith in his two pair.

[ QUOTE ]

Your flush draw could easily be no good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. Virtually all his equity depends on his 9-high flush being good if it hits. He probably assumes I have AA, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that I also have higher spades (although it's slim since both x's of AAxx would have to be spades). Perhaps he thinks that I would play the hand more slowly if I had top set + flush draw, and so believes his flush draw is good. Still, the possibility that I (or the OTHER player, more importantly) have the flush draw as well is enough to knock his EV in a weighted-hands sense of the concept to well below 2:1, which is what he needs to call.

Some might say the backdoor low is a significant chunk of equity--it indeed is, but he can't count on that being the best backdoor low draw as well; as such, using the same line of reasoning, it's a must-fold.

[Ribbo]

Not raising A25 in a game where you get callers GALORE for $9 is just stupid. Trust me when I say, having noticed the players in the game, there are some HUGE fish who will call any raise preflop. He absolutely should raise A2 preflop, but he should also fold it to the reraise and especially on that flop.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
He absolutely should raise A2 preflop, but he should also fold it to the reraise and especially on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
You dump that A25 in position to the reraiser PF? Granted, there's three to the suit (bad) and the A isn't part of the suit (bad) but virtually any two-to-a-low flop this hand is going to be strong. I think if I were OOP with this I might give it up, but in position I'd call PF as this guy did.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He absolutely should raise A2 preflop, but he should also fold it to the reraise and especially on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
You dump that A25 in position to the reraiser PF? Granted, there's three to the suit (bad) and the A isn't part of the suit (bad) but virtually any two-to-a-low flop this hand is going to be strong. I think if I were OOP with this I might give it up, but in position I'd call PF as this guy did.

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on the reraiser doesn't it. Probably would fold if their name was "scoopmeister".

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He absolutely should raise A2 preflop, but he should also fold it to the reraise and especially on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
You dump that A25 in position to the reraiser PF? Granted, there's three to the suit (bad) and the A isn't part of the suit (bad) but virtually any two-to-a-low flop this hand is going to be strong. I think if I were OOP with this I might give it up, but in position I'd call PF as this guy did.

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on the reraiser doesn't it. Probably would fold if their name was "scoopmeister".

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed.