subtlety w/ AQo.

molawn2mo · #1 06-11-2005, 12:50 AM

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

villain was loose and somewhat passive

fancy play or thoughtful play?

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

mantasm · #2 06-11-2005, 12:55 AM

why try to checkrasie a passive player, just value bet

edit also bet the turn, i didn't even notice that before, you don't want to miss a bet from a passive player who will call with like the k [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] but not bet

TheDelChop · #3 06-11-2005, 01:10 AM

Im sorry but this hand is really boring. Your playing against a fish, you have a monster hand, end of story. What part of this hand is worth discussing?

I think it was David Skalansky who said that players often spend too much time thinking and discussing how to extract money from monster hands, where much more time should be devoted discussing marginal and questionable situations.

molawn2mo · #4 06-11-2005, 01:20 AM

yes, it was a monster hand and yea, it was boring. but the post was to inquire as to there was sufficient evuidence to warrant trying to extract an extra bb.

i happen to be focusing on my river play.

sop is, of course, bet, bet, bet. but the question was by feigning weakness on the turn, essentially begging villain to bet, does my subsequent call and river check appear incongruous? is it too obvious?

mantasm · #5 06-11-2005, 01:25 AM

It's nice if you get the extra bet but i think more often you're going to miss the turn bet. There's not much reason to think a passive player will bet the turn.

chesspain · #6 06-11-2005, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There's not much reason to think a passive player will bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

molawn2mo · #7 06-11-2005, 02:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's not much reason to think a passive player will bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

He connected with the flop; that's for certain. LPPs have no stomach for A monotone flop unless they get a piece either by pairing or with a big flushie draw. So I was pretty certain that he would bet the turn, at least as a semi-bluff. He was a winning player after all and this seems an easy semi-bluff. The real question, in my mind was and still is "is it patently obvious for a TAG (he knows I'm TAG) to call the turn and then check the river without a big hand?

Bad case of FPS, though, I now admit.

TheDelChop · #8 06-11-2005, 01:34 AM

Here's are a couple scenarios:

1. River: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players )
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

2. River: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players )
Hero checks, UTG bets, ,Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets.

What now???? You going to make a crying call against a LP-P? How do you know he's not slowplaying a flush?

My point is unless you can be sure as heck that not only is he gonna bet but you can also beat anything he can bet this is not a good checkraise. The combination of times that he will check and the times that he 3-bets you makes this a pretty lousy play IMHO.

Avoiding FPS against LP-P is the best and most profitable strategy for the most part.

molawn2mo · #9 06-11-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's are a couple scenarios:

1. River: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players )
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

2. River: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players )
Hero checks, UTG bets, ,Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets.

What now???? You going to make a crying call against a LP-P? How do you know he's not slowplaying a flush?

My point is unless you can be sure as heck that not only is he gonna bet but you can also beat anything he can bet this is not a good checkraise. The combination of times that he will check and the times that he 3-bets you makes this a pretty lousy play IMHO.

Avoiding FPS against LP-P is the best and most profitable strategy for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

first, i think you and mantasm are, in the end, correct about the fps and that bet, bet, bet is the proper line.

but... scenario 1 is the more likely scenario.

scenario 2 is very highly unlikely, imo. when you hold the A of trump a LPP will like never raise the river.

that said... i effed it up and was rewarded for same as villain flipped over KdQ and MHIG. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

TheDelChop · #10 06-11-2005, 02:32 AM

Even a LP-P would 3-bet a flush. Its not really important that its not the stone cold nuts. Most LP-P arent't that passive.

What about the times you checkraise and he calls with hands that beat you?