55 with flopped set

dana33 · #1 02-16-2005, 11:28 PM

Coming from a limit background, I am finding that one of the biggest adjustments to NL is the need to pay attention to my own stack size when betting -- so that if I'm going to be pot committed anyway, I might want to move in.

In this hand, with the possible flush and straight draws, and given the small size of my stack, should I have just moved in on the flop?

A related question: how small should I let my stack get before I rebuy to bring it back to the full $25 buyin?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

Button ($30.2)
Hero ($12)
BB ($22.75)
UTG ($24)
UTG+1 ($43.2)
UTG+2 ($100.4)
MP1 ($25.1)
MP2 ($37.25)
MP3 ($25)
CO ($33)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
4 folds, MP2 raises to $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 1 fold, Hero (poster) calls $1.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($6.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $4, MP2 calls $4, CO folds.

Turn: ($14.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $6 (all-in), MP2 calls $6.

River: ($26.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $20.50

tbach24 · #2 02-16-2005, 11:32 PM

1. 20 I think
2. Fold pre-flop
3. Pushing this flop is fine

You fold pre-flop because you don't have implied odds.

dana33 · #3 02-17-2005, 12:17 AM

Thanks for the feedback.

[ QUOTE ]
You fold pre-flop because you don't have implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
In NL, how do I assess my implied odds? Is it by comparing the size of the bet I need to call to my or my opponent's stack size (whichever is smaller)? Offhand, it seems this would overstate them, because I can't necessarily assume that an all-in would be called. Instead, do I try to guess how much I could extract if I hit my hand? If so, how do I go about doing this?

istewart · #4 02-17-2005, 12:19 AM

It's really a huge guesstimate, but you shouldn't be calling off more than 5-10 (max)% of your stack in hopes of flopping a set.

Kaz The Original · #5 02-17-2005, 12:20 AM

With pocket pairs, a good rule of thumb is not to put in more than 5% of your, or your opponent's stack, whichever is less. The most you want to put in is 10%. How do you decide when it is inbetween? Both the size of the pair, and the other money in the pot (from other opponents) will help you decide.

dana33 · #6 02-17-2005, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With pocket pairs, a good rule of thumb is not to put in more than 5% of your, or your opponent's stack, whichever is less. The most you want to put in is 10%.

[/ QUOTE ]
How big must the PP be before this rule no longer applies? E.g., with KK or AA, presumably you're happy to be all-in before the flop. But as you move from QQ down to TT, say, what's the rule of thumb in these cases? At what point do you start playing pairs purely for their set value (which I assume is the point where the 5-10% rule applies)?

PoBoy321 · #7 02-17-2005, 01:00 AM

I usually don't like calling off more than 5-10% of my stack with a low pocket pair. However, I have gotten into a new way of thinking with regards to low pocket pairs. I might start a new thread about this, but more important than my implied odds, I look at my position and the previous pre-flop action. Since your big payoffs with low PPs come when you hit a set against an overpair and get paid off big, I'm more likely to call a raise from late position than to limp from early position. The other advantage to playing them in position is that when your hand is the best pre-flop, you can have a better idea of when it's best post-flop.

EDIT: Oh just since I haven't seen this specifically mentione, the reason for calling off 5-10% of your stack in hopes of flopping a set is because since you're ~10% to flop a set, you need to be able to make 9x your money in order for your implied odds to be correct. By calling 10%, this leaves you with 9:1 left behind in your stack which, if you can get it all in, gives you proper implied odds to call.

Ojo_Rojo · #8 02-17-2005, 07:03 AM

You also have to take into account the reverse implied odds, where you catch your set and still lose. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

pho75 · #9 02-17-2005, 09:54 AM

Could that be argument against calling raises out of position with pairs lower than 5's. It increases the posibility of set over set.

dana33 · #10 02-17-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You also have to take into account the reverse implied odds, where you catch your set and still lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Tell me about it! In the hand in question, villain had A4o, giving him a rivered straight. Because I didn't move in on the flop, I let him pick up his OESD relatively cheaply. (Yes, he was still making a mistake by calling on the flop. But I should have made it a bigger mistake.)